The search for "I" group status

[bayboy]

Who here was bumped from "B" to "I" at VIR? What were your average lap times on North before the NESBA Gods blessed you to the next level. I am "I" group with RL and TPM but NESBA doesn't see the same thing i guess. LOL

Thanx in advance!

[gixxercurt]

low to mid 40's

[Blinky]

I heard that nesba B's are faster than some groups I's

[bayboy]

low to mid 40's

WOOOORD!?:eek: Guess i got some growin to do. LOL

[bayboy]

I heard that nesba B's are faster than some groups I's

There are some guys that I ask myself what the hell they're doin in "B" group.

[gixxercurt]

WOOOORD!?:eek: Guess i got some growin to do. LOL

I've seen ppl bumped up running slower, but it's impossible to put a lap time on each group, EVERY person is different. There are many different variables that cr's take in to consideration when evaluating someone for a bump, not just lap times.

[bayboy]

Like what Curt?

[gixxercurt]

Well, like I said it's not just the lap times that make you ready for the next group(all though that will be a biproduct). It's being able to be fast but smooth/predictable because no matter how fast you are, when you get bumped there's probably more than a few guys in the next group that are going treat you like a rolling chicane. So just take in everything that the CR's are saying bc what they tell you WILL make you a faster, safer rider. The main thing is just have fun, this sport is WAY to expensive to go spend your whole wknd only to go home dissapointed. Merry Christmas & ride safe, Curtis

[bayboy]

Well, like I said it's not just the lap times that make you ready for the next group(all though that will be a biproduct). It's being able to be fast but smooth/predictable because no matter how fast you are, when you get bumped there's probably more than a few guys in the next group that are going treat you like a rolling chicane. So just take in everything that the CR's are saying bc what they tell you WILL make you a faster, safer rider. The main thing is just have fun, this sport is WAY to expensive to go spend your whole wknd only to go home dissapointed. Merry Christmas & ride safe, Curtis

I hate when people make sense. LMAO

[S3aturnR]

I heard that nesba B's are faster than some groups I's

i can vouch for that. but, it's not just lap times that get people bumped to I group in NESBA...


s3aturnr

[madriders86]

+1

My advice? Get rid of your lap timer. Forget about chasing lap times and focus more on improving your technique and developing good habits.

I don't have a lap timer, gauges, or anything on my bike. Not even a tach lol. I would suggest taping over your gauges and stuff for one TD. Just give it a try and see what you learn.

[sheepofblue]

As has been said here and other places it is not just about times. Remember in the riders meetings when they talk about how the control riders can just tell some people are going to be the one that crashes? They are not always the slowest people. If you are running at the front of 'B' but are erratic that means you are going to 'I' and going to be going around the outside of people and .... crashing.

I have no idea on your personal riding so that might apply to you. Also consider effort and time. I might be able to get bumped out of 'I' but I have not put any effort into it. Add in that I rode less with NESBA due to scheduling conflicts and no bump (well I might also suck :doh:) So consider there is other issues than time and speed but that there is also a lot going on so you may just be being overlooked.

[arhale09]

I hate to disagree with my esteemed colleagues, but I'm pretty sure that you don't have to be running mid-40s to make it to I group. It is absolutely correct that lap times are not the most important thing. In fact, many CR's will tell you lap times are fairly far down on the list, behind smoothness, predictability, attitude, consistency, etc. And I'd second the recommendation to ditch the timer for a few days and just have fun. That said, when I got bumped to I group I think I was in the 1:50-ish range, if not a few ticks slower...

[arhale09]

If I can amend the previous, it seems I may have misunderstood what Curtis was getting at, namely that he was bumped while running mid-40s, and not that that's what you need to be doing. At any rate, just have fun, the bump will come when you least expect it

[gixxercurt]

:agree:

[Mikey75702]

Having ridden with roger lyle a few times. If you are I group over there, try out b here. Most likely it will be a great fit. There are some fairly quick folks in the b group. You get to the fast people in I with nesba, then the a group guys are just...... Uhhhhhh...... holy shit....

[erick1670]

i can vouch for that. but, it's not just lap times that get people bumped to I group in NESBA...

s3aturnr

:agree:
in previous years I was running I in every other org like TPM and NYSB, I go bump back to B one day that I went to a new track to me and got there late so I was off the pace, and all over the track I dint know it. So the CR at that particular track day dimmend that I bellong in B, so my way back to I was a bit longer b/c every other CR criteria on when to bump is diferent... and I guess is good for you so you can work on your all around skill, it was easier to me get bump from I to A :D than B to I :dunno:

[madriders86]

Having ridden with roger lyle a few times. If you are I group over there, try out b here. Most likely it will be a great fit. There are some fairly quick folks in the b group. You get to the fast people in I with nesba, then the a group guys are just...... Uhhhhhh...... holy shit....


So I'm fast? Wow. New concept to me :D

[dlockhart5x]

:agree:
, it was easier to me get bump from I to A :D than B to I :dunno:
yep

B to I is probably the widest gap.
Think back on all the things you didn't have a clue about. I feel that by the time you are done with B you are a pretty "mechanically" competent rider. I group hones those riding skills to where you are well in control and expands the mental side a bit more. If you have done your work in I , thenI to A is almost anti- climatic. Everyone is pretty fast, and you ride your ride just like in B and I


Getting bumped from B to I ment the most to me

Ps being a fast guy in I is probably the fun-est time, enjoy it

[erick1670]

yep

B to I is probably the widest gap.
Think back on all the things you didn't have a clue about. I feel that by the time you are done with B you are a pretty "mechanically" competent rider. I group hones those riding skills to where you are well in control and expands the mental side a bit more. If you have done your work in I , thenI to A is almost anti- climatic. Everyone is pretty fast, and you ride your ride just like in B and I


Getting bumped from B to I ment the most to me

Ps being a fast guy in I is probably the fun-est time, enjoy it

:agree:
so far I have done 2 days in A and I feel like the punching bag, but in each day I got to pass few guys and acomplish few things, so in each day I came out with something new learn and I feel that am will get to the mid pack in a few more outnings in the meat grinder:banghead:

[BigKid]

I can assure you, I never looked at a lap timer before, during or after an evaluation to determine a bump. It is all about smooth, predictable and being able to hit your apexes consistently.

[ceptorman]

I can assure you, I never looked at a lap timer before, during or after an evaluation to determine a bump. It is all about smooth, predictable and being able to hit your apexes consistently.

What's sad is many orgs will let you sign up wherever you want, no evaluation. I'll bet there are a few guys that think they're fast, signup in I or even A, and look down on someone in Nesba's B group, even though a Nesba B rider might be faster and a much better rider.

[ninjamansc]

I truly can understand the "bump chase." My goal in life was to get to 'A' as fast as possible. I too became frustrated at times, always getting the "you're doing everything right, just go faster." Now, being in 'A' is really no big deal to me.

Unfortunately, the insight you need will not be apparent until after the bump(s).

[Smithereens]

It's my experience with Nesba that you'll earn your bump by working on the basics..... body position, throttle control, hitting your marks, etc........... but there's just no substitute for making good decisions in a sport that requires so much trust between participants. Are you making clean passes, paying attention to the flags and respecting the track conditions?

CR's will all tell you that lap times aren't the most important criteria but it still counts. You might be smooth and safe but you're still probably not ready if you're way slower than the guys in the next group up.

[spyda1000]

i think the better u are with you lines and position improves your lap time naturally. the bump will find u...

[Mr.DJ]

I truly can understand the "bump chase." My goal in life was to get to 'A' as fast as possible. I too became frustrated at times, always getting the "you're doing everything right, just go faster." Now, being in 'A' is really no big deal to me.

Unfortunately, the insight you need will not be apparent until after the bump(s).

Was that "word for word" what the CR told you? Was there more to it than that, or did you get more actionable feedback from another CRs? Just curious. In addition, have you or other 'A' riders request advice while in 'A'?

[bayboy]

I feel alot better after reading these post. At the end of the day if I'm a fast B rider that can dust off 75% of other organizations I groups........ I'm cool with that. In the end it will make me a better/smoother/safer rider.

My name is Bayboy...... and ...... "I" am a NESBIAN B GROUP RIDER!!!! :cool:

NOW HURRY THE FUCK UP SPRING!!!!!

[dlockhart5x]

have you or other 'A' riders request advice while in 'A'?

I think that by the time many of us have made A we have good casual relations with the other riders in our group and can seek out suggestions when needed. Also at the A stage of rider development, solving problems is part of the fun.

[Mikey75702]

I feel alot better after reading these post. At the end of the day if I'm a fast B rider that can dust off 75% of other organizations I groups........ I'm cool with that. In the end it will make me a better/smoother/safer rider.

My name is Bayboy...... and ...... "I" am a NESBIAN B GROUP RIDER!!!! :cool:

NOW HURRY THE FUCK UP SPRING!!!!!

That's the attitude.... now hurry up spring :D

[blueninja1]

i could use the winter time to my advantage. Daddy needs some dough.

[bugmn20]

i could use the winter time to my advantage. Daddy needs some dough.

I'm pretty sure we all could use some dough, but I agree with the above, HURRY UP SPRING!!!


I'm Chilly and I'm also a NESBIAN B Group Rider :)

[ceptorman]

How about practice riding....

[bugmn20]

How about practice riding....

Nice Sled!

I would really love to have a sled, and back home we have plenty of snow for it right now. I've never been able to pull the trigger on buying though. Maybe it will be my next fiscally irresponsible decision, right after I get this R6 finsihed!

[ceptorman]

Nice Sled!

I would really love to have a sled, and back home we have plenty of snow for it right now. I've never been able to pull the trigger on buying though. Maybe it will be my next fiscally irresponsible decision, right after I get this R6 finsihed!

You could always rent one.....about $160 a day....plus you're always on a new one. Iron County Wisconsin is the snowmobiling capital of the country!!!

[ninjamansc]

Was that "word for word" what the CR told you? Was there more to it than that, or did you get more actionable feedback from another CRs? Just curious. In addition, have you or other 'A' riders request advice while in 'A'?

When I was in mid-upper 'I', that was heard at least a half dozen times. I took it to mean that my technique was solid, and had the physical ability to go faster. Which I knew. After Troy (aka Landshark) talked to me about the mental aspects, I really understood what needed to be done. I still hear him (like Obi-wan) occasionally when I seem to plateau.

When I got to A, I was talking with Dale Blackman, and he pointed out that sometimes that feedback is used repeatedly to see if a person is able to make improvements without telling what to do, which is required in A. I get it now, but it would've been nice to know much sooner.

I've requested advice, and sometimes got it. Being shown around a new track was always no problem. I'm at the point now where the "little things" start making a noticeable difference, and honestly, when I've asked for a 'rabbit' it just never seems to happen.

It would be awesome if there was an 'A' group seminar once in a while. Or have one of the faster CR's dedicated to A group, do some feedback laps, maybe get some video, or work on some drills, YCRS style.
It seems that lately I'm just out there to use up tires, and it's kinda getting old chasing lap times.

[gixxercurt]

hey Steve-o, sounds like you should come down south and ride more. Guarantee that they're more than enough ppl in A that could, and would be willing to help you out! However you may need a translator for our southern dialect, or at least a crash course!

Have you ever tried racing??

[beac83]

Was that "word for word" what the CR told you? Was there more to it than that, or did you get more actionable feedback from another CRs? Just curious. In addition, have you or other 'A' riders request advice while in 'A'?

I've been told this at several track days over the last year. "Your lines are good, body position is good, You're hitting the apexes, it's just your pace that's holding you back"

This fall, finally drilled down into that with a CR and got some actionable advice "Start getting on the throttle here. you are waiting too long after the apex to get on the throttle." I took 5 sec off my pace that day, and the following outing cut some more time off. :D Sometimes you have to take personal responsibility to make sure that you understand what someone is trying to tell you.

That said, I've been given comments like "you need to trust your tires more", "you need to go faster", and "you are too slow through the corners". None of these comments, however accurate an observation, tell me how to improve my riding.

If instead I was told "you need to use more lean in the corners", you need to get on the gas right after you pass the apex, and stay hard on the throttle until you start braking", and "you have the skill to go through this corner faster, try entering the corner at a slightly higher speed" would have saved me much frustration, because the second set of quotes provide clear feedback that gives me something concrete to work on, rather than a generic comment. The first set of comments tell me that I'm doing something wrong, without necessarily providing any clear instruction on how to fix it.

Shame on me for letting each of the CR's who made the first set of comments get away without explaining things better.

[kubricky]

Allow me to offer some thoughts:

The Control Riders -- Control riding, coaching, instructing, etc., etc. for any club and for any type of activity such as we do is a lot like riding itself. It takes some time to get used to the change in perspective and to tranlate what you have learned to be "actionable" data for a rider. Over the last 18 months I have worked hard to make correlations between what I see and understand of the riders i work with and the way I learned as well and then articulate that so that the rider can learn from it. Developing this takes time -- riders can help us by asking for more or asking us to explain ourselves.

Help yourself -- You understand best how you learn AND HOW TO LEARN. If you are given advice or soemthing to practice, DO NOT simply go out and toss the bike into the new position or crank the throttle to 11 but rather work up to the new method in degrees. I know we hear this all the time, but I think it needs to be said voer and over. I have an example for this, but I'd rather not print it for fear that someone will try it thinking well it worked for Kubricky...

Check your ego and have fun -- First and most importantly we SHOULD be doing this to have fun. I know I am rather straight forward with what I say in the meetings sometimes and I won't disappoint here: if you are 30 years old and trying to get a MotoGP ride...with Jorge as your teammate...you might be better served in another hobby. If you think you are going to break track records and this is your first year on the race track, you might want to try MMA or skydiving. There really is little room for ego in the TRACK DAY business. If you are hear to practice for a race or learn a track as a racer -- respect those here to enjoy themselves. If you are riding with your group of friends and are the fastest of them, line up at the front of the line your group...maybe you will get bumped and it will motivate your friends to do better and you will certainly learn. If you are mid pack with your group of buddies or at the back, move slowly ASK THEM what you can do to improve and watch them. If you don't have a group you ride with, come and find me or ask anyone in the paddock, I really enjoy riding with others.

The GREAT Lapt timer myth -- I want to preface this by saying there will be an article on theBellyPan about this very subject from Brian Blume and I am looking forward to it, but I want to throw out a couple thoughts here. A lap timer is a TOOL not a stopwatch AND it should be used as such. If you want to try something new, do two laps, then try entering a corner differently, a different line, etc., then pit in and review [mentally] how you did by comparing your times. When I had a straight timer, I would be able to remember about 4 laps worth of data, but little else. Our reference points keep our laps consistent, it is the minor things we change to make improvements. The GPS lap timers CAN BE an incredible tool, they can be wired to give DAQ and show changes in lines (on a track!), braking and acceleration, etc., etc. The great myth is twofold: a timer should be left off the bike and a timer is a great tool. Used properly the timer can help you, improperly it can actually hurt your times, force you to make mistakes and create inconsistency. However, without the laptimer as a measure of where we are sometimes we can become frustrated and wonder if we will ever improve. It is the "laptimer chase" that causes the most problems.

Reagarding the earlier tone of the discussion, I look at a number of things for the bump from B to I...body position (just the basics), consistency, reference points, ability to understand lines and apexes, aggression, ability to follow rules, smooth clean passing, and finally and last on the list how consistent are lap times -- NOT what lap times may be.

Just some thoughts, Ihope this helps...

[dlockhart5x]

:crs:

good write-up kubricky

At first it seems so simple. What to do when the rider is doing everything well, but just not going faster?

Some seem to be able to say to themselves "it worked out fine at X pace, lets see if X+2 works"

I think I fall into this catagory, and since I am slow, I have plenty of +'s to work with before hitting the limit aka ground

[vinny337]

It's my experience with Nesba that you'll earn your bump by working on the basics..... body position, throttle control, hitting your marks, etc........... but there's just no substitute for making good decisions in a sport that requires so much trust between participants. Are you making clean passes, paying attention to the flags and respecting the track conditions?

CR's will all tell you that lap times aren't the most important criteria but it still counts. You might be smooth and safe but you're still probably not ready if you're way slower than the guys in the next group up.

+1 :agree:

[vinny337]

Just curious. In addition, have you or other 'A' riders request advice while in 'A'?

I've asked for a rabbit and CR Lou "The Don" showed me the way, for as long as I can keep up...lol Someone already mentioned it, most of the guys in A you get to know, trust and can ask for any advice especially if it's going to makes it a safer riding environment.

[vinny337]

I am "I" group with RL and TPM but NESBA doesn't see the same thing i guess. LOL

Thanx in advance!

For the record I've rode with TPM, STT and Absolute this season...NESBA runs a faster pace in each group, not saying they don't have fast people because they do, I'm just saying in the overall censuses NESBA's groups are faster.

[Meat]

...have you or other 'A' riders request advice while in 'A'?

No request needed. The CR's can tell when I am off-pace and riding like a goober. They just come by me on the track and look back and I know school is in session.

That is one thing that I was so surprised about, was the level of help in A-group. It is not nearly as formal as in the other groups and it may only be in a corner or two, but the help is always there if it is needed.

There is also more help from highly skilled A-group riders as the A-group seems to be a much tighter knit group than I or B groups.

[Mike Moore]

Great conversation. Just to echo what several riders have already said: Its about applying the fundamentals at ever increasing stress levels. Each time I have hit a plateau, it has always been traced back to my application of one of the fundamentals.

Sometimes when I ride, I just want to ride. I go out with no plan and just enjoy riding with the other riders. This is ok, but I'm probably not getting better. (maybe marginally). When I want to work on my riding, I start with a plan. My plan is not "I'm going to take 2 seconds off my lap time". For me that's like boiling the ocean. Its more like; For this session I'm working on trailing the brake into 1 and 3 or throttle application in 5 and 8. This approach has worked for me.

Also, be careful with rabbits. They can pull you down the rabbit hole. Going faster without the understanding of why is a dangerous proposition.

One final thought: Riding in the Advance group is full of learning moments. The trick is you have to be able to take advantage of it. Next time someone shows you something in the turns, can you break it down to the application of which fundamental was applied differently? If so you've got your next item to work on, let the rabbit go and focus on that turn. If its not clear, ASK. My experience has been they will be glad to share and if you didn't get the number of the truck that went around you grab a CR and describe the situation they can help you break it down. (I know several much faster riders, helped me with several aspects of my riding last year :adore:)

Back to the beach :D

[D-Zum]

I still ask for help.

Example from 2010, I was struggling at Summit early this past year trying my 600 there for the first time. I asked Dale Blackman to show me his lines for a few laps and he graciously agreed to do it. So, we went out.

His lines had nothing to do with it for me..it was his helmet that helped the most. I realized he was looking way ahead and I was not. I immediately started leading myself more with my eyes and BINGO. It all started come together MUCH better. Dropped 2 seconds/lap at that point.

I also bug CR's like John Allen, Todd Lewis and Cal, Courtney, Kaley, and a host of others....

Making A group was a big accomplishment for me..but it was really the end of the courtship phase of my learning and really the true beginning of the REAL learning. All I really think I got out of all my experience is that I know now HOW to learn.

Cannot WAIT for the Yamaha school this Spring!!!!

[D-Zum]

No request needed. The CR's can tell when I am off-pace and riding like a goober. They just come by me on the track and look back and I know school is in session.

That is one thing that I was so surprised about, was the level of help in A-group. It is not nearly as formal as in the other groups and it may only be in a corner or two, but the help is always there if it is needed.

There is also more help from highly skilled A-group riders as the A-group seems to be a much tighter knit group than I or B groups.

And only the A group guys can tell us apart! :D

Every time someone asks me, "Are you Meat?" I just cannot stop laughing.

Happy New Years Bud.

[slowpoke]

To answer DJ's question - I've asked and received a ton of feedback in "A" group. In fact, I've gotten the most specific feedback and learned the most in A vs B and I combined.

My experience has been that there are a ton of skilled riders in 'A' that are more than willing to help you out - CRs and members alike. As others have said, it might not be for multiple laps/sessions, but generally I'm just looking for a few missing pieces whether it be sections of the track that I'm struggling with OR one of the fundamentals that I need to focus on more. Like Mike said, sometimes it's just a rider flying by in a section that shows me a different line OR simply that I can go in much faster, deeper.

In Steve-o's post, one thing stands out to me and that's the feeling of burning tires chasing laptimes. I've felt this way before and have found the best solution is to turn off my laptimer and wait on the grid to ride with some old friends or make some new ones. I have never set a good laptime while trying to. My best laps have always been when I'm out there to have fun.

Kubricky and Mike make great points in suggesting that we all ask specific questions when we get feedback. If you get a vague answer like you need to just go faster, be sure to ask how and where. When evaluating my own riding, the two fundamentals I am most aware of are: Am I using the entire track? and Where am I looking? My best, easiest laps (and yes they are still slow) are when I'm laser-focused on the exit cones and getting on the gas as soon as I see that exit. Combine that with not trying to set a laptime and I end up staying loose on the bike, running faster more consistent laptimes, and it takes much less effort.

Is it spring yet?

[erick1670]

When I was in mid-upper 'I', that was heard at least a half dozen times. I took it to mean that my technique was solid, and had the physical ability to go faster. Which I knew. After Troy (aka Landshark) talked to me about the mental aspects, I really understood what needed to be done. I still hear him (like Obi-wan) occasionally when I seem to plateau.

When I got to A, I was talking with Dale Blackman, and he pointed out that sometimes that feedback is used repeatedly to see if a person is able to make improvements without telling what to do, which is required in A. I get it now, but it would've been nice to know much sooner.

I've requested advice, and sometimes got it. Being shown around a new track was always no problem. I'm at the point now where the "little things" start making a noticeable difference, and honestly, when I've asked for a 'rabbit' it just never seems to happen.

It would be awesome if there was an 'A' group seminar once in a while. Or have one of the faster CR's dedicated to A group, do some feedback laps, maybe get some video, or work on some drills, YCRS style.It seems that lately I'm just out there to use up tires, and it's kinda getting old chasing lap times.

:agree:

[Blinky]

How to tell if it is MEAT...

1. He has "Meat" on the back of his leathers.

2. (And The biggest give away) Meat doesn't look like a Vegetarian....

[rk97]

I've also been told, "you're doing everything right, just go faster," but I don't take that as simply as some people seem to be.

To me that says, "you can hold the proper line and have good body position at an intermediate pace really well - now let's see you do it at an advanced pace with the same control and safety."

It's not, "I can't think of anything constructive to say to you, so just go faster," It's, "there is nothing wrong with the way you're riding, but there is still room for you to improve."


for the OP, I firmly believe control riders want to see you be on-line and safe at MORE THAN ONE TRACK before bumping you. At least that definitely helps. They need to know that when you take a road trip to another NESBA region, the CR's in "I" aren't thinking, "what the hell are those CR's in the Southeast smoking bumping this guy up?"

[bayboy]

I think the "having faster friends" thing is also working against me. All of the people I go to the track with are A groupies or Racer groupies. So when it comes to goin out just to have fun it never happens. I mean I have fun but none of my sessions are purpose free. There's always that underlying desire to learn something to get me to the next level. So i find myself sometimes, losing touch with the fun aspect of it.

After thinking about it, CR's please take notice. Some of you guys while showing us newbs how to get it in, can also set us up for failure. From the beginning, in the riders meeting we here SAFE passes only while the bikes are "STRAIGHT UP AN DOWN." Well i can't tell you how many times I've gotten the tail tap from a CR and off we go. I'm able to keep pace and everything is fine........ theeeeeen it happens. We hit traffic and the CR slices through leaving me wondering if i should do the same or wait till a safer opportunity presents itself. More often than not I opt for the safer option because even though I'm sure "I" can negotiate the passes safely I'm not sure aboutthe person I'm passing. So once past all the traffic, the CR is LOOOOOOOOOOONG gone. LOL Now if given the right away from a CR...... "Hey when we get out here if we hit traffic and I go through, you have the right away to come with me," that would help alot.

CR's please don't take offense to this post because not all CR's go about things this way but this has happened to me alot.

[Meat]

:popcorn: Got my popcorn. Ready to watch the show.

[Blinky]

How to tell if it is MEAT...

1. He has "Meat" on the back of his leathers.

2. (And The biggest give away) Meat doesn't look like a Vegetarian....


+ 3. You will have no shirt on

+ 4. You will know that you are officially Meat if the women keep walking by you.

[Mikey75702]

I think the "having faster friends" thing is also working against me. All of the people I go to the track with are A groupies or Racer groupies. So when it comes to goin out just to have fun it never happens. I mean I have fun but none of my sessions are purpose free. There's always that underlying desire to learn something to get me to the next level. So i find myself sometimes, losing touch with the fun aspect of it.

After thinking about it, CR's please take notice. Some of you guys while showing us newbs how to get it in, can also set us up for failure. From the beginning, in the riders meeting we here SAFE passes only while the bikes are "STRAIGHT UP AN DOWN." Well i can't tell you how many times I've gotten the tail tap from a CR and off we go. I'm able to keep pace and everything is fine........ theeeeeen it happens. We hit traffic and the CR slices through leaving me wondering if i should do the same or wait till a safer opportunity presents itself. More often than not I opt for the safer option because even though I'm sure "I" can negotiate the passes safely I'm not sure aboutthe person I'm passing. So once past all the traffic, the CR is LOOOOOOOOOOONG gone. LOL Now if given the right away from a CR...... "Hey when we get out here if we hit traffic and I go through, you have the right away to come with me," that would help alot.

CR's please don't take offense to this post because not all CR's go about things this way but this has happened to me alot.

I can tell you this.... if you see a nesba control rider do something that's not allowed for you to do.... dont do it. Sometimes they seem to test your judgement, others they might have to drop you and catch someone in front of them for not following the rules.

[rk97]

We hit traffic and the CR slices through leaving me wondering if i should do the same or wait till a safer opportunity presents itself. More often than not I opt for the safer option because even though I'm sure "I" can negotiate the passes safely I'm not sure aboutthe person I'm passing.

I think you're taking the "straight up and down" thing too seriously.

weaving through traffic on a straight, or even on the brakes is okay as long as it's before turn-in, and you're not bumping into people.

If you're really going faster than them, it shouldn't be an issue.

[Mr.DJ]

for the OP, I firmly believe control riders want to see you be on-line and safe at MORE THAN ONE TRACK before bumping you. At least that definitely helps. They need to know that when you take a road trip to another NESBA region, the CR's in "I" aren't thinking, "what the hell are those CR's in the Southeast smoking bumping this guy up?"

Werd!!!!! :) Glad to see someone posted.

In my mind, along with other clutter, I go through this list when watching a rider for a bump:


1. Lap times (weighted x2)
2. Line Selection
3. Bike Control & BP
4. Situational Awareness
5. Judgement
6. Variety of Tracks


Although the terms may differ from CR to CR, the intent is unwaivering. This is pretty standard throughout NESBA.

I hear some say "your attitude" is a variable. I may be wrong, but I may see it differently. One can have a less than desirable personality in the paddock or not ideal in how they receive feedback- As long as they respect the members with sound judgement and "Situational Awareness" on the track, it will work out. It has been my observation, those with poor (selfish) attitudes need the most improvement with #4&5. That is what holds them back.

An open communital, but personalized feedback session from both parties usually yields a favorable outcome for the member. For example "You have the pace and potential to make it in A-group. Because the margin of error in A is so small, we need to work on alternate lines. There will be times a faster rider will take your line at entry, another rider is in tow and counting on you hold your "new line" at pace. Your entry will change, but we need you to get back on the apex and exit. How does one do that? Do you park it then turn in? Do you trail a little bit longer to bring the bike back in?"


Above is just a sample of a feedback session and is focused in the group as a whole. It always benefits the next group (NESBA) to have new talent in all groups. It will push us all in our riding, ability to share what we leaned and learn old skills - I have to admit, doing everything right, but go faster are the easy ones.

[D-Zum]

I think the "having faster friends" thing is also working against me. All of the people I go to the track with are A groupies or Racer groupies. So when it comes to goin out just to have fun it never happens. I mean I have fun but none of my sessions are purpose free. There's always that underlying desire to learn something to get me to the next level. So i find myself sometimes, losing touch with the fun aspect of it.

After thinking about it, CR's please take notice. Some of you guys while showing us newbs how to get it in, can also set us up for failure. From the beginning, in the riders meeting we here SAFE passes only while the bikes are "STRAIGHT UP AN DOWN." Well i can't tell you how many times I've gotten the tail tap from a CR and off we go. I'm able to keep pace and everything is fine........ theeeeeen it happens. We hit traffic and the CR slices through leaving me wondering if i should do the same or wait till a safer opportunity presents itself. More often than not I opt for the safer option because even though I'm sure "I" can negotiate the passes safely I'm not sure aboutthe person I'm passing. So once past all the traffic, the CR is LOOOOOOOOOOONG gone. LOL Now if given the right away from a CR...... "Hey when we get out here if we hit traffic and I go through, you have the right away to come with me," that would help alot.

CR's please don't take offense to this post because not all CR's go about things this way but this has happened to me alot.

No offense Bayboy..but you're just mis-interpreting the lesson being taught in your scenario.

The CR's zipping through traffic (and I can guarantee you they do it within the group rules) BECAUSE he wants to put some obstacles between you two and see how YOU handle it.

If you two caught up to these rider(s), you two are running a faster pace.

So, are you able to safely and cleanly negotiate through these rider(s) within the rules of your group and continue following the CR?

Are these other riders merely obstacles to get around or walls to you?

If they're a wall...there's still things that need to be learned.

[bayboy]

I think you're taking the "straight up and down" thing too seriously.

weaving through traffic on a straight, or even on the brakes is okay as long as it's before turn-in, and you're not bumping into people.

If you're really going faster than them, it shouldn't be an issue.

The passes are within the rules for the group but if only one of us can make the move into the desired race line, that puts bikes between you and the person instructing you. In B group if you're a faster person you can sometimes get stuck behind 2-5 bikes runnin waaaaayyy slower than you because the passing rule.

[rk97]

I don't take it for granted that there's only room for 1 of you to make the move. I would (respectfully) suggest that the control rider firmly believes that an "I" rider would stay on his rear wheel through the scenario you described, or catch up a couple of turns later.

I remember feeling the same way you do. I got bumped when I started thinking, "man, everyone is so easy to pass on the brakes..."

[bayboy]

No offense Bayboy..but you're just mis-interpreting the lesson being taught in your scenario.

The CR's zipping through traffic (and I can guarantee you they do it within the group rules) BECAUSE he wants to put some obstacles between you two and see how YOU handle it.

If you two caught up to these rider(s), you two are running a faster pace.

So, are you able to safely and cleanly negotiate through these rider(s) within the rules of your group and continue following the CR?

Are these other riders merely obstacles to get around or walls to you?

If they're a wall...there's still things that need to be learned.

Dude...... I feel ya 100% but everyone knows who has gone through the B Group class, it is always in the back of your mind............. don't get in trouble for doin the wrong thing and get the dreaded THROAT SLASH. LOL I run consistent 1:50-1:52's and would probably be faster if it weren't for the periodic road blocks. lol I'm not sayin that everytime i go out with a CR this happens but it just seems like it does when it counts.

[moonbeam]

If you are running an I pace you should not have any trouble passing in the B group within the rules . As instructed in the riders meeting line up in the left lane at the front , and I will bet you no will hold you up.

Moonbeam
#50

[bayboy]

If you are running an I pace you should not have any trouble passing in the B group within the rules . As instructed in the riders meeting line up in the left lane at the front , and I will bet you no will hold you up.

Moonbeam
#50

HOLY WHAT THE FUCK BATMAN!!! :wow: You know I have never done that, why I have no idea. LOL:doh: Man I can't wait to get the new season underway. I really need to get up with some NC/NOVA track junkies though. Goin it solo all the time is really expensive.

[dlockhart5x]

I think all of us who started in B went through this phase. And I think in most cases there is that lightbulb moment when traffic disappears and you "get it". Then they bump you and the humility begins again.

When I first started nesba days, I picked up on a fast friend going out last and working his way forward.
When you "get it" this all of a sudden becomes pretty easy.
Then those mean CRs bump you to I and it starts all over again
:bumpme:

[Smithereens]

Good description of what takes place as you improve and move from B group to I group and then to A group. First everyone in your group seems to be slowing you down and it's hard to get by them... then the passes get easier and you become one of the faster guys slicing through the group. When you find yourself lining up at the back of the grid instead of the front because you're one of the fast guys and enjoy passing the bikes that used to slow you down......you'll get bumped. Easy passes on the guys in A group (other than me) are pretty rare so enjoy them in B and I.

[beac83]

I was working with a CR who knows me well at my last track weekend when he asked why I had not followed him through traffic. I replied that I have always been very cautious about passing on the brakes because of the great variability of skills in B, and I didn't want to panic anyone. He responded that he knew I had the skills to pass cleanly and should be less worried about using them.

The rest of the day, it became easier to work through traffic. I just needed the "permission" to trust myself enough to do it, and trust that the other riders wouldn't be upset by my passes. If you are able to see the entirety of what's happening in front of you, can properly read the line of the others out there, and then select and maintain a predictable line through the corner, you should be able to make clean passes.

[rk97]

^ that's a good post from Craig.

Where to line up to get clean track ahead of you can be a crapshoot though. Lining up at the front of the left-hand line lets CR's know you think you're quick, but depending on the size of the track, it also situates you to start lapping the back of the slower riders just as you're done warming your tires.

I have this problem a lot at BeaveRun, where I typically allow 1.5-2 laps to warm my tires. It's nobody's fault, but just when the quicker "I" guys are ready to start turning sub 1:08 laps, they're catching the riders who have just been released half a lap ago, on cold tires, who (just based on where they lined up) are probably a few seconds a lap slower.

[slowpoke]

often times, i will go thru traffic (alwyas within the rules) knowing that i can get thru, but i want to see what the rider behind me does. does he follow the rules and wait for a safe spot to pass, what kind of pass does he make, and how comfortable is he during the pass.
If i blow past 5 bikes, i never expect the rider following to get thru so i'll slow down a few turns ahead and wait to see if he/she can patiently work thru the "clump" of traffic.

Sometimes, following riders take a CR as a police escort meaning they can do anything they want and ignore the rules b/c they are following a CR. definitely not what any CR or member wants to see. as you progress, those frustrating clumps of traffic will become fun as hell to get through.
in fact, i'd go as far as to say the day you get bumped, it will be bittersweet b/c you'll be having so much fun flying past traffic with zero effort. And then as dlock said, it's humble pie all over again.

[PJZOCC624]

Was that "word for word" what the CR told you? Was there more to it than that, or did you get more actionable feedback from another CRs? Just curious. In addition, have you or other 'A' riders request advice while in 'A'?

I truly can understand the "bump chase." My goal in life was to get to 'A' as fast as possible. I too became frustrated at times, always getting the "you're doing everything right, just go faster." Now, being in 'A' is really no big deal to me.

Unfortunately, the insight you need will not be apparent until after the bump(s).

If I had a dollar for each CR who told me this last season, I'd have, like... 6 dollars (8 dollars if I include Steve into that equation) :D

No, it wasn't the only thing that was said to me, and I did press for more specific feedback. Usually, I would leave the encounter with a specific area to try to improve on, such as moving back a break marker, or tightening up a line, or holding the throttole open longer. But to hear the "Just go faster" soundbyte from multiple sources...

It definitely can be frustrating when you hit a plateau and you don't see any measurable improvements in your riding. My comments are not an idictment of the CRs for not being able to help me improve. I need to better analyze my own ability and find ways to improve upon what I'm already doing right. I know I am my harshest critic, and I focus on the turn I screwed up, or the pass I didn't make, which is usually the result of my frustration. But, sometimes, it's not about what you're doing WRONG or not doing right that's holding you back from going faster. That's what I take from the CRs who make the above comments.

For me, I have to find a comfortable way to push past my "comfort" zone, and, as they say, "JUST GO FASTER!"

[jcrich]

I run consistent 1:50-1:52's and would probably be faster if it weren't for the periodic road blocks.


They are not roadblocks, you are not passing them in the proper spots. If you continually run up on slower riders and cannot pass them on the brakes safely, exactly what you describe above is going to occur. However if you gauge your closing on the slower riders better, which comes with experience, you will catch them exiting the corner and the problem is solved.

[ninjamansc]

Lots of great stuff here. PJ, I meant it. You're doing everything right, just go faster. :D

Kubricky, Mike, and Pontrelli are right about the lap timer issue. Looking back on the end of the season, I would go out with a goal lap time, and try different things to get to that time. I'd find myself getting tense, then relax, then tense, etc. and changing things all in the hopes of faster times. And that was never the case. Sure there are times I'm completely relaxed and having fun. But that timer was still enough of a distraction to go into superpole mode, then feel dejected when I'd end a session marginally faster than the previous. And if I was faster, I'd have no real idea why.

This season, the lap timer is off the bike. Thanks for the perspective, guys.

[Smithereens]

If you continually run up on slower riders and cannot pass them on the brakes safely, exactly what you describe above is going to occur. However if you gauge your closing on the slower riders better, which comes with experience, you will catch them exiting the corner and the problem is solved.

A great nugget.....well said.

[Meat]

+ 3. You will have no shirt on

+ 4. You will know that you are officially Meat if the women keep walking by you.

Argh! Sometimes the truth hurts. :)

[noobinacan]

I don't want to ride by myself, it gets boring.
so much more fun can be had running a rat pack!

[S3aturnR]

here is how i see it:

i try to ride as best i can, keep and open mind and try to absorb all the instruction/advice from the CRs like a sponge and apply it to the best of my ability on the track.

in turn, the CRs will evaluate my performance, give feedback and decide when to move me to the next group.

i have my job... they have theirs.

every now and again, i'll catch myself starting to ride beyond my ability. maybe it's trying to keep up with a CR (they blow thru slower traffic like that to see how YOU are able to negotiate it; do you make good decisions and clean passes?) or another rider, but when i realize it, i try to back off and clean up my lines and work on my body positioning until i get comfortable with that faster pace.

i have come to the realization that it's not the destination, it's the journey. what good is it to me if i get to the A group in record time, but don't have any fun doing it? i'm not getting paid for this. in fact, it's costing me quite a lot of money. and, if i'm gonna pay this kind of money, i DAMN sure better be having a good time.

one day, the CRs will feel that i'm ready to go to the next run group and i will be grateful. until then, i'm gonna do what i can and have a good time. i'm in no particular hurry...


s3aturnr

[D-Zum]

here is how i see it:

i try to ride as best i can, keep and open mind and try to absorb all the instruction/advice from the CRs like a sponge and apply it to the best of my ability on the track.

in turn, the CRs will evaluate my performance, give feedback and decide when to move me to the next group.

i have my job... they have theirs.

every now and again, i'll catch myself starting to ride beyond my ability. maybe it's trying to keep up with a CR (they blow thru slower traffic like that to see how YOU are able to negotiate it; do you make good decisions and clean passes?) or another rider, but when i realize it, i try to back off and clean up my lines and work on my body positioning until i get comfortable with that faster pace.

i have come to the realization that it's not the destination, it's the journey. what good is it to me if i get to the A group in record time, but don't have any fun doing it? i'm not getting paid for this. in fact, it's costing me quite a lot of money. and, if i'm gonna pay this kind of money, i DAMN sure better be having a good time.

one day, the CRs will feel that i'm ready to go to the next run group and i will be grateful. until then, i'm gonna do what i can and have a good time. i'm in no particular hurry...


s3aturnr

I hope you don't take this the wrong way...but

I think I love you!

I think DJ should bump you just for this post.

[ecycle]

I've really enjoyed going through this thread, it's fun to remember what it was like being in the different groups. To me the key to it all no matter what group you are in is having fun. If you are having fun you most likely are riding within your comfort zone and have the best chance of doing the right things no matter what the situation. That also allows you the best chance of getting better given you are listening to advice and paying attention to what is going on around you on the track. If you are not having fun I will bet you are trying too hard to go faster and are no longer in your comfort zone and making mistakes that are only serving to scare you. When you are scared you will make bad decisions. Who wants that?? Go out there and enjoy yourself, don't worry about a bump, it will happen all by itself. I somehow went from B to CR without ever thinking about having to get to the next level. I wanted to get better but more than that I wanted to have fun. I did and I still do!

Looking forward to seeing everyone next season!

Earle
SECR

[ceptorman]

Good description of what takes place as you improve and move from B group to I group and then to A group. First everyone in your group seems to be slowing you down and it's hard to get by them... then the passes get easier and you become one of the faster guys slicing through the group. When you find yourself lining up at the back of the grid instead of the front because you're one of the fast guys and enjoy passing the bikes that used to slow you down......you'll get bumped. Easy passes on the guys in A group (other than me) are pretty rare so enjoy them in B and I.

Good point...:agree:

[madriders86]

The passes are within the rules for the group but if only one of us can make the move into the desired race line, that puts bikes between you and the person instructing you. In B group if you're a faster person you can sometimes get stuck behind 2-5 bikes runnin waaaaayyy slower than you because the passing rule.


If I can do it on an sv650...you can do it on whatever kawasaki you're on :D

[barry38]

I'm in full agreement with Earle. I never gave a damn about getting bumped, just figured it was up to me to go out there and ride my ride. When they wanted to bump me to A, I actually told them no since it was the first day of a multiple day event. At the end of day 2 I was bumped, and realistically I still wasn't convinced I belonged there, at least until the next event when I got to actually ride in the A group.

Now here's my .02 cents. As a CR it's my job to help our members achieve their goals when riding on the race track. I do my best to give solid feed back on what it will take for you to improve your riding skills. My advice is to not worry about getting bumped, because that's not what it's about. You can only go as fast as your skill set allows. If you apply the techniques we attempt to teach, the bumps will come.

[vinny337]

This season, the lap timer is off the bike. Thanks for the perspective, guys.
Uuuh, is it for sale? :D

[slowpoke]

Uuuh, is it for sale? :D



Vinny - you can have my old timer:

http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/roccophilly/timers/timer1.jpg


I've upgraded to a digital one:

http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/roccophilly/timers/timer2.jpg

[HondaGalToo]

Vinny - you can have my old timer:

http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/roccophilly/timers/timer1.jpg


I've upgraded to a digital one:

http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/roccophilly/timers/timer2.jpg

Ooooo, you're a great deal quicker than I. Here's what I use:

[dlockhart5x]

Does that say racer23 anywhere on it? Fred aka mid-west director loaned his out a few seasons ago and would like it back :haha:

http://tracktalk.nesba.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7173&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1293641321

[vinny337]

Vinny - you can have my old timer:

http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/roccophilly/timers/timer1.jpg


I've upgraded to a digital one:

http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/roccophilly/timers/timer2.jpg

Chris,
Lolo, thanks anyway, I used to have the one that Judy has but I got the digital one for Christmas too...:D

Ooooo, you're a great deal quicker than I. Here's what I use:
Judy, I think I know what to get you for your birthday...:)

[Fastguy]

http://tracktalk.nesba.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7173&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1293641321



Can I get one of these with a NESBA Logo? :dunno:

[Matt H]

Great thread. Great discussion. LOTS of good things said. I won't post and repeat. But I did want to mention one thing about the comment on CR's making passes and the following rider questioning about making the pass at the same time to keep up. In addition to what has been said, sometimes we as CRs will make a pass while maybe the following rider can't also. This is so that "we" (the CR and following rider) do not have to wait for a window big enough for multiple riders. If the CR makes the pass and the following rider is then directly behind the person, then the very next passing opportunity the following rider can make a pass - and "we" (the CR and following rider) and carry on. This sometimes is easier and safer than trying to get multiple riders through in certain sections of the track. I just wanted to post this so that the riders can understand what is going on on the track. I do believe that understanding what we are doing can lead to a safer and less frustrating experience. Different situations can call for different things - this is just one type of situation. And this can be a great judge of a following riders abilities and JUDGEMENT. I'll look back and see where you are and when you have gotten around the rider cleanly - I'm not going to just run away and lose you.

[barry38]

Great thread. Great discussion. LOTS of good things said. I won't post and repeat. But I did want to mention one thing about the comment on CR's making passes and the following rider questioning about making the pass at the same time to keep up. In addition to what has been said, sometimes we as CRs will make a pass while maybe the following rider can't also. This is so that "we" (the CR and following rider) do not have to wait for a window big enough for multiple riders. If the CR makes the pass and the following rider is then directly behind the person, then the very next passing opportunity the following rider can make a pass - and "we" (the CR and following rider) and carry on. This sometimes is easier and safer than trying to get multiple riders through in certain sections of the track. I just wanted to post this so that the riders can understand what is going on on the track. I do believe that understanding what we are doing can lead to a safer and less frustrating experience. Different situations can call for different things - this is just one type of situation. And this can be a great judge of a following riders abilities and JUDGEMENT. I'll look back and see where you are and when you have gotten around the rider cleanly - I'm not going to just run away and lose you.


To add to this, there will be times I'm following a rider, watching them and waiting for them to make a pass on a rider they are clearly faster than. If after a lap or two they do not get past, I'll pass them, then the leading rider to show them how they can get past. I'll wait a bit to see if they can get by. If not I'll either do a wave by, or move on to help someone else. I'll always do my best to find that rider after the session and debrief them on what I saw.

You got to remember, there are normally about 6-8 members to every CR, so it can be tough to ride with one person for more than 2-3 laps.

As far as giving feedback, I can't tell how many times I've spent 3-4 laps following someone, and when the session ends they don't stop for feedback. There are at least 3 people from last season alone who I would have bumped, but could not find them at the end of the session, even after a couple laps through the pits looking for them.

[suzipimp3]

I don't want to ride by myself, it gets boring.
so much more fun can be had running a rat pack!
Second that bro, it's so much fun when people are doing about your same laptimes. It's intense!

[S3aturnR]

for some silly reason, my bike has a stopwatch built into the IP cluster. my last bike did, too. i kept wondering how the hell you would work it while you were trying to negotiate a track, but i'd always forget to try it as soon as i lined up to go out. at least my kawi had a thumb switch to activate it and do the split times. i wasn't sure i wanted to do that in fear of losing focus, but i damn sure don't wanna try to stick my hand to the button on the cluster to try to clock a lap. WTF?!


s3aturnr

[bayboy]

YOU KNOW WHAT DAMNIT!!!! I'm gonna pat myself on the back.............. This iiiiis a good thread(in my best Samuel L. Jackson voice)! LOL

Question, can more advanced people ride with slower groups?

[Mikey75702]

YOU KNOW WHAT DAMNIT!!!! I'm gonna pat myself on the back.............. This iiiiis a good thread(in my best Samuel L. Jackson voice)! LOL

Question, can more advanced people ride with slower groups?

If you are talking about I group guys riding with the b group, in short the answer is no. They can permanently bump themselves down, but they would be stuck until bumped up again by a control rider.

[bayboy]

Aaaaaaahhhhh............ That answers my question then.

[beac83]

As far as giving feedback, I can't tell how many times I've spent 3-4 laps following someone, and when the session ends they don't stop for feedback. There are at least 3 people from last season alone who I would have bumped, but could not find them at the end of the session, even after a couple laps through the pits looking for them.

Unless you show us a wheel, we probably didn't know you were back there. We keep getting told NOT to look back. Even if I hear a bike on my tail, I don't really know who it is until/if they pass me.

[barry38]

Unless you show us a wheel, we probably didn't know you were back there. We keep getting told NOT to look back. Even if I hear a bike on my tail, I don't really know who it is until/if they pass me.

Trust me, if I'm riding with you, you'll know I was there.

[beac83]

Trust me, if I'm riding with you, you'll know I was there.

:eek:


Remind me to watch my backside if I make it to Beaver in 2011! j/k

[Blinky]

thats pretty good that u can hear someone elses bike behind you. I can only hear my bike. must be the ear plugs.

[Bubba Zanetti]

:eek:


Remind me to watch my backside if I make it to Beaver in 2011! j/k

As much I want to capitalize on the innuendo for Barry's sake, you will hear him. He keeps his R6 so spun up if he's behind you you will know it.

BZ

[booboo1]

I have learned more in this thread than the few tracks days I did last year. I have a much better understanding of whats going on and what is allowed. Along with what is expected to get bumped etc. Granted when you are somewhat new there is sooooooo much info to process it can slow you down. So seat time on the track and keeping this stuff in mind, I have no doubt I will be a better rider next time out. One last thing that i was told that works wonders is to relax. Hard to do sometimes but makes a huge difference when i do it. Things come more natural, and I am quicker.

[flynlow69]

Hats off to the I and A group riders! I'm always impressed with the pace you guys run, not to mention 7 20 minute sessions :) And don't forget the control riders that never seam to take a break.

I'm happy with B group myself. I only run a couple of track days a year. Line up on the left and have a great time. Don't mind getting behind the slower folks, gives me time to pay attention to the track, body position, reference point etc. not to mention catch my breath!

[Kegger]

Hats off to the I and A group riders! I'm always impressed with the pace you guys run, not to mention 7 20 minute sessions :) And don't forget the control riders that never seam to take a break.

I'm happy with B group myself. I only run a couple of track days a year. Line up on the left and have a great time. Don't mind getting behind the slower folks, gives me time to pay attention to the track, body position, reference point etc. not to mention catch my breath!

+1 I dont think Ive ever "not had fun" in any group!

[1bad7]

Just my .02 Having been with Nesba for a year now, I can tell you that they are the best Org I've ridden with. Having spent the last 7 years before that in Europe, I had a bit of culture(rule if you will) shock, as it's pretty close to anything goes as far as skill level goes over there, hell I even rode on Misano with Biaocco when he was there with the big Ohlins truck testing suspension(totally got smoked after T5 on the old configuration).

Anyway, the whole time I have ridden with them at both tracks in Jersey and both South and full at VIR, I've only jumped in behind a control rider twice. I figure I still have a lot to learn to get to A so I just ride to the best of my ability and try to learn something new everytime I go out. Bottom line is that I don't obsess about it. Hell if I can't figure something out by myself, I'll either jump in behind a CR or go ask after the session is over and then apply what they tell me. Besides I'm having so much fun in I right now due to having to figure out passing ops that it is really worth all the tires I go through and the funds spent at the track.

Enjoy and welcome to the addiction!

[1bad7]

I am the ultimate thread killer!!! every post I make is the last for that thread, so if you want a thread killed just request my services and it shall be done. That is all, you may now go back to your regularly scheduled lives....LOL

[rk97]

+1 I dont think Ive ever "not had fun" in any group!

that's when i KNOW i'm doing something wrong. :D

But there were definitely some days in "B" where I was frustrated by the fact that I didn't have the skill to make passes where I wanted to.

Any time I'm getting angry inside my helmet, I pit in. Making impulsive decisions at 100mph just isn't smart, and slowing down is easier than calming down sometimes. Reminding myself that i'm at the track with the sole purpose of enjoying myself helps though. It's just not worth the stress.

One rain-soaked and cold day, a group of us decided poker and beers would be more fun than riding in the miserably conditions. we COULD have ridden, but we're there to have fun; so we did :)

[trickyricky]

I am the ultimate thread killer!!! every post I make is the last for that thread, so if you want a thread killed just request my services and it shall be done. That is all, you may now go back to your regularly scheduled lives....LOL

I thought that I was the only one with those special powers! Grazie mille! Tutto 'posto per 2011??

[Godfather]

I find it impossible to do mid 40's when you are following a 20 bike train under the Oak Tree in first gear. I probably couldn't do mid 40's on a 2010 R1 either! HA HA!! I'm still in B group also, and I'm not sure how to move up!

R/ Mike Godfather Beard

[AU_R1]

OK who was at the VIR SED day in I group last year. There was a great quote related to this. Something about if you're going balls to the wall every lap and making good lap times you're not going to get a bump. They're looking for consistency and a rider that doesn't have to go 100% every lap to make good times. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, all that jazz.

The best advice I can give is don't "look" for a bump. If you're having a hella good time riding at the front of the B group all day, feeling all cool and cocky cause you're the bad ass passing every bike in sight, enjoy it. They'll find you soon enough and you have to go back to being the slow guy again when you get to the next group. ;)

[S3aturnR]

If you're having a hella good time riding at the front of the B group all day, feeling all cool and cocky cause you're the bad ass passing every bike in sight, enjoy it. They'll find you soon enough and you have to go back to being the slow guy again when you get to the next group. ;)

my thoughts exactly...


s3aturnr

[madriders86]

I find it impossible to do mid 40's when you are following a 20 bike train under the Oak Tree in first gear. I probably couldn't do mid 40's on a 2010 R1 either! HA HA!! I'm still in B group also, and I'm not sure how to move up!

R/ Mike Godfather Beard

My suggestion would be a track bike of a smaller displacement. A 600, or smaller if your ego will allow.

If you're having a hella good time riding at the front of the B group all day, feeling all cool and cocky cause you're the bad ass passing every bike in sight, enjoy it. They'll find you soon enough and you have to go back to being the slow guy again when you get to the next group. ;)

Quoted for truth.

[seatec]

Wow, great thread! I rode wiht NESBA lat year at Barber for the first time. Having done some TD's before then, I can honestly tell you that NESBA CR's are very good if not the best.

I never felt nervous around them when they popped up in front of me and tapped the tail. It never felt that i didnt know what to do when the CR would pass somebody and i didnt have time to push thru without compromising the rider in front of me. They will wait for you if they are not done with you yet.

Can't wait to do it all again in April @ Barber.

[Kegger]

The best advice I can give is don't "look" for a bump. If you're having a hella good time riding at the front of the B group all day, feeling all cool and cocky cause you're the bad ass passing every bike in sight, enjoy it. They'll find you soon enough and you have to go back to being the slow guy again when you get to the next group. ;)

My experience has been that they wont bump you to the next group until you wont be THE slowest guy out there. Typically not until your a solid mid pack for the next higher group. Obeying rules and holding consistent lines. This is why NESBAs I and A groups are consistently faster and safer than the same groups with other orgs. I thought that too, and was comfortable my first session out with a new group. This is what I have noticed in the midwest region anyway.......

[AU_R1]

Quite true, the slow thing was a bit of sarcasm, but I experienced the same thing. I was really hesitant to pick up my I bump, but I felt quite comfortable once I got there, middle of the pack-ish.

[matt2212]

bump

lots of good info in this one

[Smithereens]

Just read it again......... +1:agree:

[matt2212]

I'm getting ready for barber and have read it twice, its funny how people have the exact same progression and how they explain the different levels in ways that suddenly make sense. It also helps answer the question about where I am and how far i have to go before the "Bump"

[toolfreek]

Wow, great thread. My last track day was in the end of last year, and I got the same type of "you're looking good, just go a little faster" type of responses. One coach pointed out that I was timid with my passes. I was always going out front because I wanted to have clean track, not trying to get a bump, at the end a coach told me I wasn't quite ready to move up, same sort of "just go faster" type of stuff. I told him I was perfectly happy in B, still am, but I'm still not comfortable with passing, not from a fear of my inability to execute it perspective, but from a fear of spooking someone else, ending their day, or as another guy said, fear of getting parked. I'm out there to have fun, and would feel horrible if I caused someone to crash and kept them from having fun, y'know? I wasn't really sure what I was going to work on this track day, specifically, but now I think I know. How should I approach a CR for advice on this? I don't want to be that guy who says "Teach me how to pass people!" and you guys think I'm out to be that guy who is passing on the outside over the blind hill in 4 under yellow (hypothetically, of course ;) ).

[sheepofblue]

Ask them WHERE you can pick up some pace. If the answer is everywhere then ask for a specific place on the track. All people have a habit of using pronouns and thinking the other person is following them when the generalization can sometimes prevent that.

While they are answering the question you are not following it up for details. I have found riding with intermediates that most have a couple of spots they are losing a lot of time (as do I). Due to my few hundred laps I can usually supply info to neighbors that drop them a second or more a lap. Control riders can easily do the same, so ASK. Go work on a single area to pick up pace with the tips and coaching they can provide.

As to the passing once you are running quicker then ASK on that, but my bet is that will be more natural as your pace increases and you start having to judge closing speeds and angles more often.

[toolfreek]

Yeah I guess that is something this thread has been enlightening to, is the need to ask for details. I know alot of the guys are doing there best, and are out there to help, so I didnt want to badger them. I did get some very specific pointers as well, such as my foot positioning needing to be about an inch different from what it was (I thought it was amazing he could notice to that detail) and that to remember when hanging off it wasnt about getting the head down and off the bike, but standing the bike up. I hope my first post didnt come across as they were not helpful, because that couldnt be further from the truth.

I guess my fear with the guy telling me I need to be more aggressive passing is that, considering it is B group, and I dont know the skill level of the other people out there, I have to expect that every move I make on them is going to spook them, piss them off, etc, and ruin their experience. I did have an incident once in the museum section at barber with a guy on a busa. I was on my SV and set myself up to run tight out at the bottom and try to set up to beat him to the next corner. He was parking it in turns, and then tried to drag race me to the next corner. Pulled up next to me, didnt know I was there and got spooked and grabbed a handful of front brake. I literally saw him next to me one second and GONE the next, was scared he crashed. Found him in the paddock later and he said it scared him and he pulled off from that session after that. He was easy going, and we were cool, but I hated that I ruined his session for him, even if he, by his own admission, learned from it, about the difference in his bike versus something like an sv, where corner speed is crucial. Maybe that incident just sticks with me too much?

[rk97]

first off, I think it is ALWAYS a positive sign when you are expressing concern for other riders on track.

It sounds like you and I were in similar positions in "B," you were faster than the rider in front of you, but hesitant to "force" a pass.

Your plan to ask how to pass sounds just about perfect, but based on your description of things, I'm betting you have all the speed and skill to get by and only lack the confidence. Control riders can tel you "you totally could have made it by," but they can't be confident FOR you. It's always safer to ask their opinion, but when they're saying, "just go faster," it probably means that they're confident in your ability to brake later and get by that rider holding you up.

If you're having fun in "B," there's no reason t force anything. Your safety is more important than your speed.

[toolfreek]

Yeah, when I was going out, I would always go out as close to first as possible. I'm certainly not bragging and or acting like I'm fast, but there was pretty much only one guy who did pass me. He did so a couple of times (once under yellow, over the blind hill LOL). The CR who said I wasn't ready did kind of laugh and said the two guys behind me were asking for a bump, and said that he and I pretty much ran off and left them. I'm on an R1 now, but I think my time on the SV taught me corner speed, as I find myself running up on other riders in B in the turns a lot. I actually inadvertently towed one of my neighbors through 5 when I passed him, he described me as running away from him by that second apex.

I agree 100%, I know they cant do it, per-se, but what would be perfect would be essentially a thumbs up, thumbs down on the passes I made in a session. Kind of a "just let me go until I start getting close to the edge, then pass me and let me know that was close to the limit" kind of thing. The CR's do a fantastic job of showing us the non nebulous things like the line, what the bikes are capable of in turns, brake markers, etc. But other, more nebulous things are harder to show. I understand that, and don't have the answers to how to do it either, but for now, I take "you aren't agressive enough passing" as better than "get your head out of your a, you could have killed someone".

[Mikey75702]

Yeah, when I was going out, I would always go out as close to first as possible. I'm certainly not bragging and or acting like I'm fast, but there was pretty much only one guy who did pass me. He did so a couple of times (once under yellow, over the blind hill LOL). The CR who said I wasn't ready did kind of laugh and said the two guys behind me were asking for a bump, and said that he and I pretty much ran off and left them. I'm on an R1 now, but I think my time on the SV taught me corner speed, as I find myself running up on other riders in B in the turns a lot. I actually inadvertently towed one of my neighbors through 5 when I passed him, he described me as running away from him by that second apex.

I agree 100%, I know they cant do it, per-se, but what would be perfect would be essentially a thumbs up, thumbs down on the passes I made in a session. Kind of a "just let me go until I start getting close to the edge, then pass me and let me know that was close to the limit" kind of thing. The CR's do a fantastic job of showing us the non nebulous things like the line, what the bikes are capable of in turns, brake markers, etc. But other, more nebulous things are harder to show. I understand that, and don't have the answers to how to do it either, but for now, I take "you aren't agressive enough passing" as better than "get your head out of your a, you could have killed someone".

Might be easier to ask one of them to pass you in the worst way they would feel comfortable in B group. So they can wait till after the straight and "stuff you" (of course thats the B group stuffing, not the A group) then maybe you will see how close you can pass without being "wrong"

[toolfreek]

:adore:
Good idea. Had not thought of that.

[slowpoke]

i rarely, if ever, make the pass "that i have to think about" b/c it's been beaten into my head. I find myself thinking: what's the upside to passing here-and-now vs the potential downside. that equation ends with me being respectful of my fellow riders' safety.

an issue I struggled with was a similar suggestion given to me about passing while in "I" group. Some CRs told me I was too timid with passing. I would never commit to passes unless I was able to give the other rider an enormous amount of room. The advice, while true, bordered on discouraging and I honestly thought I lacked a necessary level of assertiveness to make it to the next level. I remember feeling like maybe I wasn't cut out for this next level of riding the CRs were referring to.

The reality was that I just wasn't ready, and with seat time came more confidence and some more skill refinement. This is something I'm sensitive to b/c I see many other riders come to the same psychological cross-road, and the only remedy I know of is seat time and constant rider development/feedback. I'm glad I didn't just go out and 'try' to be aggressive b/c that definitely wasn't what the CRs were telling me nor would they have tolerated it.

hope that helps someone at some point in their progression.

[toolfreek]

Nice to know I'm not alone, if nothing else. Honestly, I think I'd be better at it in I (I say this knowing I havent been there) because someone at that level in NESBA has a) passed people and b) been passed. In B, I feel it's best to throw that assumption out of the window, for both of our's safety.

I guess it is the same reason why I'm less bothered by a CR passing me, and my spidey sense tingles less than another customer passing me. I trust the CR to do so cleanly, I cant make that assumption with the other guy.

Unfortunately I witnessed an argument last time out where one guy felt another guy passed him too closely. His quote was something like "that move was a bad move for A group, much less I". My $.02 on the matter was "This is the beginner group, shouldn't you expect everyone out here to make mistakes that they wouldn't in other groups? I know I do."

I certainly don't intend to go out and throw caution to the wind and start stuffing people, but I think I'll view them less as walls and more as obstacles, as someone said previously.

And if any of you CR's are going to be at Barber April 2, yell at me! :)

[jcrich]

And if any of you CR's are going to be at Barber April 2, yell at me! :)

Just approach one of them, they will not bite. ;)

[toolfreek]

There was one time...;)

[stow]

The one thing to note is everybody has been passed and passed badly at one time or another. You don't want to be the guy making bad passes, but you shouldn't think twice about making good clean passes. The "B" group only allows passing while the bikes are straight up, so if you can pass someone while their bike is straight up then you should do so. Just make sure your passes are clean.

So how do you make good clean passes in the "B" group? First make sure you are up to speed and comfortable with the pace you are carrying. If you are not in complete control and comfortable at your current pace, then you should not be passing anyone. Next give the rider you plan to pass a few turns or even a lap to get an idea of how they are riding. Are they holding their line, are they using all of the exit, do they run wide off the apex; are just a few things you should be looking at while forming you passing maneuver. Plan ahead for the pass, know when and where you are going to make the pass and leave room for the unexpected. Sometimes riders you think you have figured out will do odd things.

What type of passes should you be prepared to make in the "B" group? Using horsepower on the straight is the easiest and most common. The next is passing on the brakes approaching the turn. If you are setting someone up for a pass before turn in, you have to make sure you are going to complete the pass before they tip their bike in for the turn. The next thing is you have to know that you can complete the turn at the speed you are carrying into it. Nothing makes me feel dumber than trying to pass someone going into a turn and then blowing the turn while the rider goes right back by, but it happens. Now the best pass setup in the "B" group is basically setting up the pass on corner exit. This is where knowing what the typical "B" rider will do on corner exit plays to your advantage. Most "B" riders use the whole track on exit. So if the rider in front of you tends to do this then you need to plan to pass on the inside portion of the turn after the turn exit. Don't pass on the inside of the turn, but after the exit when the rider has already picked up their bike. You want to go into the turn so that you can tighten up the exit and pick your bike up quicker and get on the throttle earlier. This usually means you will go slow in and fast out. This pass is about timing and control, and is what most CRs are looking for when we are looking to bump a rider to the "I" group. Man I miss being the fast guy in the "B" group. :D

[jcrich]

That is what I was thinking, but didn't have the eloquence to state it this way. Shane only bites when he is hungry. :D

[stow]

That is what I was thinking, but didn't have the eloquence to state it this way. Shane only bites when he is hungry. :D

This one time, at a trackday ...

[toolfreek]

Very nice, Stow, thanks.

[Smithereens]

Hey Toolfreek...... you went from an SV to an R1..... passing in B group automatically became easier.
Just respect the R1 throttle on exit and the fact that you'll be entering braking zones at a different pace.

[toolfreek]

Haa, yeah I ran with the *cough* other *cough* group before I got the R1. The credit from Yamaha encouraged me to try Nesba. Let's say it cut the amount of passing done to me on the straights down. :) It was frustrating as crap on that bike to pass people on the outside, especially 2/3 and then have them back in front of me by 5 again because they'd just blow by me on the straight after the hill. I can only guess that would be a non issue now.

I will say that I think I was actually better prepared for the higher corner entry speeds coming from a bike where your goal was to maximize that. I didn't get as all up in the brakes as I thought I would, to be honest.

[noobinacan]

lots of words of wisdom in this thread...
The way I look at it, Its not going to happen overnight...

Just focus on having fun in whatever group you are. That's my priority.
i know the times I ran last year, they're in a little notebook. If I take a second off all those times...this season at all those tracks, I'd be happy. Barber/RA/CMP/VIR-N.

[booboo1]

One thing in b group is Im running a 600 and I am finding I can hang or am faster from through the corners then as we are straight up I get dusted. It happens alot. Come out of the corner then get up beside them. Then they twist it because they don't want to get passed. Repeat lap after lap. Guess it's a ego thing.

[Mikey75702]

One thing in b group is Im running a 600 and I am finding I can hang or am faster from through the corners then as we are straight up I get dusted. It happens alot. Come out of the corner then get up beside them. Then they twist it because they don't want to get passed. Repeat lap after lap. Guess it's a ego thing.

Learn to get faster in the corners. I was having this problem for a little while, but then I got faster and just give them a few feet going into the corner, and have a huge run at them at corner exit.

[JRA]

Learn to get faster in the corners. I was having this problem for a little while, but then I got faster and just give them a few feet going into the corner, and have a huge run at them at corner exit.

Exactly. You'll learn a lot on a slower bike.

[beac83]

toolfreek - I was at Barber last November, that's the day I referred to in Post #65. You and I are about at the same point, where we have the skill, but not necessary the confidence in ourselves (or in our fellow B groupers) to actually make the pass.

In Stow's great post above (#126), he talks about how to work that out. I'll be out there come May working on it. Maybe by the time I get to Barber this coming November we will have both worked our way past the issue.

See you out there.

[toolfreek]

Were you there saturday? I was the red and white r1 with red a* leathers and white helmet.

[beac83]

You were moving well! I was on a GSX-R600 with a yellow/red tank and tail, and maroon/blue bodywork. (don't ask too many questions why :)) I rode Saturday and up until 1PM Sunday, then had to pack up to get to work in Raleigh the next morning. You were smoking me Saturday while I struggled to learn the track. I was doing a lot better Sunday. About 8 sec a lap better.

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq318/craigbeac/NESBA%20Barber%2011-06-10/KET_8670.jpg

Jordan working with me late Saturday afternoon.

[toolfreek]

Ok, yeah I remember the bike. Jordan worked with me a good bit too. He was the "move your feet a little" and "push the bike up, not try to get your head down" cr. I think it was him who also refereed the guy who thought he got stuffed (and then passed me under yellow where the lady and corner worker were killed a few years ago). Obligatory riding with Jordan picture. Hope to see you back out there again! :D

[S3aturnR]

lots of words of wisdom in this thread...

for sure. i like the posts that say they don't mind that they're in the B (or I) group, they're just out there to have a good time, learn at their own pace and not cause anybody to have a bad day.

if i suspected that it would be no fun to progress up thru the ranks, i wouldn't. (it just so happens, i DO think it would be pretty entertaining). i am perfectly fine with B group for as long as it suits my riding ability. when it's time to move up, i'm sure one of NESBA's finest will let me know.

if it ever means so much to me that i'm bugging the CRs before every session to evaluate me for the "bump", i probably need to sit down for awhile.

that said, i TOTALLY CAN'T WAIT to get back out on the track again. starting off on road america on memorial day. hope to see everyone there...


s3aturnr


p.s. my race fairings from the trackday store came in today. (very excited!) guess i need to get them test-fitted this weekend, then send them off to paint...

[kawaholic]

The one thing to note is everybody has been passed and passed badly at one time or another. You don't want to be the guy making bad passes, but you shouldn't think twice about making good clean passes. The "B" group only allows passing while the bikes are straight up, so if you can pass someone while their bike is straight up then you should do so. Just make sure your passes are clean.

So how do you make good clean passes in the "B" group? First make sure you are up to speed and comfortable with the pace you are carrying. If you are not in complete control and comfortable at your current pace, then you should not be passing anyone. Next give the rider you plan to pass a few turns or even a lap to get an idea of how they are riding. Are they holding their line, are they using all of the exit, do they run wide off the apex; are just a few things you should be looking at while forming you passing maneuver. Plan ahead for the pass, know when and where you are going to make the pass and leave room for the unexpected. Sometimes riders you think you have figured out will do odd things.

What type of passes should you be prepared to make in the "B" group? Using horsepower on the straight is the easiest and most common. The next is passing on the brakes approaching the turn. If you are setting someone up for a pass before turn in, you have to make sure you are going to complete the pass before they tip their bike in for the turn. The next thing is you have to know that you can complete the turn at the speed you are carrying into it. Nothing makes me feel dumber than trying to pass someone going into a turn and then blowing the turn while the rider goes right back by, but it happens. Now the best pass setup in the "B" group is basically setting up the pass on corner exit. This is where knowing what the typical "B" rider will do on corner exit plays to your advantage. Most "B" riders use the whole track on exit. So if the rider in front of you tends to do this then you need to plan to pass on the inside portion of the turn after the turn exit. Don't pass on the inside of the turn, but after the exit when the rider has already picked up their bike. You want to go into the turn so that you can tighten up the exit and pick your bike up quicker and get on the throttle earlier. This usually means you will go slow in and fast out. This pass is about timing and control, and is what most CRs are looking for when we are looking to bump a rider to the "I" group. Man I miss being the fast guy in the "B" group. :D

THANK YOU SHANE!!!

that's some excellent info and it reinforces what i've been doing/trying to do.

i have experienced the rider who you think you have figured out do odd things and it can be a little scary sometimes. i agree horsepower on the straights is the easiest but when you're faster than the rider on a 1k in the turns it can be a little difficult to get them on the straight when you're on a 600. it definitely takes some planning.

i was definitely getting more comfortable/better at passing on the brakes but i'm always worried about spooking or taking the rider's line i'm passing through the turn.

my favorite and the one i'm the best at is what you've described as the best way to pass. in slow, out fast. i had one close call last fall at r/a coming out of turn 7. i cut inside on the exit. the rider in front of me was all the way to the left and i was about middle of the track. just as i was coming by, he was quickly coming to the right. scared the crap out of me but i stayed in the throttle. i didn't feel like i did anything wrong but it did seem like i almost took his front end off as i came by. :wow:

i'll prolly regret sharing this bit of info but...at barber in november i found a nice place to pass. it was at the turn for pit in. i kept finding slow riders staying all the way to the right and hugging the inside of the turn. what i was doing was staying out where the preferred line is all the way to the left. i would get straightened out and zip by in the middle of the track and slowly drift to the right so i could make that left onto the front straight. i told the guys i was pitted with that i met there what i was doing but they didn't believe me until they saw me do it. after that they started calling it "the move" and told me i was sandbagging...lol

[meanstrk]

I find it impossible to do mid 40's when you are following a 20 bike train under the Oak Tree in first gear. I probably couldn't do mid 40's on a 2010 R1 either! HA HA!! I'm still in B group also, and I'm not sure how to move up!

R/ Mike Godfather Beard


I think if you are going through Oak Tree doing North, that maybe you gots bigger problems to worry about, and if you are trying to turn 40's on South, well, that's a whole other issue! Was that pit bike races?

[RacerRuss]

I haven't ridden with Nesba in a couple of years, this thread makes me miss the goat.

[beac83]

I've been thinking about this thread this week, after finally getting out again. I rode two days at Road America, and all I can say is that things were different for me. This thread and some other work I did over the winter definitely helped. Wanted to say thanks to all for the advice and instruction in this thread.

RA is famous for its 3 long straights where those of us on 600's get hammered. This time I was able to pass cleanly, quickly, decisively and calmly. Stow, your words about not taking a pass you have to think about served me well.

A few guys are still beating me on corner exit. I need to build a little more confidence in getting on the gas more effectively once past the apex.

[matt2212]

Bump

Another old thread but I think it helped me not too long ago



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