Question re: water in radiator and towing to track

[jrfuisz]

Duc got water in the radiator the end of last season. Spend the winter in a borrowed garage. 10 day forecast shows it should be above freezing for the NJMP weekend BUT do I need to worry about transporting the bike up the night before. In other words, if it is say 38 the night I drive up and the Duc is in the back of the pickup (with wind chill and all) do I need to worry about things freezing and exploding? I would assume not, but....

[Jay336]

38 is above freezing

[snikwad]

i think hes worried about the windchill while being towed affectting it.

[dmb367]

Windchill doesn't apply to metal, you'll be fine if its above 32 deg.

[jls223]

If it's above 35F parked no problem. 35F and below being transported in the open may be a problem. If so, just start the bike every so often to add heat and cover radiator to hold heat.

[jkoehler]

Windchill doesn't apply to metal, you'll be fine if its above 32 deg.

+1 on what he said.

[jls223]

+1 on what he said.

Only thing I'd caution is a thermometer's accuracy is at best +/- 1% of full scale accuracy. That's why HVAC chilled water system freezestats are set at 35F-39F. Therefore if you read 35F in your car it could actually be 32F or below. FYI.

[vanbreezy]

To be safe transport with nothing in the bike. Just make sure you tape a " NO WATER" sign on the gas tank. Bring some distilled water and water wetter to the track and fill there. This way no worries.

[jls223]

To be safe transport with nothing in the bike. Just make sure you tape a " NO WATER" sign on the gas tank. Bring some distilled water and water wetter to the track and fill there. This way no worries.

I should of thought of that! :doh: :adore:

[StreetRider]

I must say, that vanbreezy guy is pretty smart! :-) lol

[vanbreezy]

I must say, that vanbreezy guy is pretty smart! :-) lol

Thanks Mills I try can't wait to see you at the track in May. You and Jolly will be a welcomed sight. :D

[Revvin' Evan]

I took my bike to Jennings this winter with water in it. We left in the evening and drove straight through. It hovered around 28-30 degrees the whole night with no problems. Its got to be pretty cold for a good amount of time to get water to freeze. Keep in mind that your bike will be moving around while on the trailer which also slows the freezing process since the water will be moving a bit. If you are really worried about it, one johnny hand warmer tucked on the engine somewhere will definitely keep it well out of the freezing range.

Wind chill does not alter actual temp. Even though the wind chill may be 7 degrees, the actual temp is still the same.

[rk97]

Wind chill does not alter actual temp. Even though the wind chill may be 7 degrees, the actual temp is still the same.

right-o. Humans are cooled by wind because it speeds the evaporation process of the moisture on our skin.

What I think throws people is that they know their bike runs cooler when it's moving instead of sitting. True - this is because the radiator actually transfers heat into the air surrounding it (or rather, the air steals the radiator's heat-energy). more air passing through = the ability for greater heat transfer, but the radiator fluid will still never get any cooler than the air temp. If that were possible, a RUNNING engine could freeze on a cold enough day.

[avizpls]

windchill is a made up number for cry-baby humans....if its 38F, its 38F and thats all tehre is too it.

"Its 38 but it FEEEEELS like 31!"

[Meat]

As RK97 stated, windchill is the effect of evaporative cooling. If your metal isn't evaporating, you don't have a problem, no matter how fast you go.....well, if you go fast enough the friction from the air will warm your bike. Keep it below mach 1 and the paint shouldn't melt...LOL!!!

[snikwad]

ok, so you guys are saying that wind chill is only for evaporation on human skin, so why do our bikes have fan.
why does our bikes when we are stationery, it gets hot/warm, then as soon as we move off again, the temp drops?

It may not be wind chill, but the cooler the air moving over the metal the more heat will be transferred to the air. Surely the wind is a factor, ive seen days where the indicated temp is 35 degrees, and there is no wind, and the next day at the same spot the indicated temp is the same but its windy, and pubbles of water will have surface freeze. So whats that then? it may not be wind chill, but its something damn it.

[Meat]

ok, so you guys are saying that wind chill is only for evaporation on human skin, so why do our bikes have fan.
why does our bikes when we are stationery, it gets hot/warm, then as soon as we move off again, the temp drops?

It may not be wind chill, but the cooler the air moving over the metal the more heat will be transferred to the air. Surely the wind is a factor, ive seen days where the indicated temp is 35 degrees, and there is no wind, and the next day at the same spot the indicated temp is the same but its windy, and pubbles of water will have surface freeze. So whats that then? it may not be wind chill, but its something damn it.

It is not evaporation on human skin. The effect of evaporative cooling doesn't matter what it is on. Look up "swamp coolers". They are a cooling devise that is used in warmer and dryer climates. The drier the air, the more evaporation occurs and therefore the more evaporative cooling.

That is also how chillers or cooling towers work.

As for your bike having a cooling can on the radiator: It forces more air through your radiator. The more air mass that touches your radiator surface, the more heat is taken away....until the radiator is at the same temperature as the ambient air around it. Think of it this way: If you touched your radiator when it was hot, it would burn your hand because it transferred heat from the radiator and into your hand. Now think about 100 of your friends doing the same thing very quickly...as if a fan was pushing your friends through the line to touch your radiator....cools it even faster.

I hope that helped. You can also look up "wet bulb test" to see how evaporative cooling is used to determine relative humidity (No, I didn't look it up, but I am sure it will tell you).

[riddler]

I wanted to add my .02

These are my thoughts, haven't researched at all... well at least since heat transfer class in college.

Wind chill is a heat transfer calculation for the approximate surface area of a person and based on the temperature differential of ambient air to body temp. Moving air will transfer more heat from the body to the air. Based on the temperature differential and the velocity of the air you can calculate an equivalent lower temperature that would remove heat at the same rate in stagnant air. That is your wind chill.

In the case of transporting your bike, their will not be any heat transfer at all because your bike and the air around it will be at the same temp. So the temp itself is what you should be concerned about.

Question:
Although water wetter isn't intended as an anti-freeze, does adding it to water lower the freezing point at all? Where a temp in the vicinity of 32 degrees wouldn't be such a cause for concern? Ethylene Glycol antifrees is good to -40, maybe adding water wetter drops the freesing point to say +10 degrees? If no one has this info, maybe I'll conduct an experiment.

[Meat]

I wanted to add my .02

These are my thoughts, haven't researched at all... well at least since heat transfer class in college.

Wind chill is a heat transfer calculation for the approximate surface area of a person and based on the temperature differential of ambient air to body temp. Moving air will transfer more heat from the body to the air. Based on the temperature differential and the velocity of the air you can calculate an equivalent lower temperature that would remove heat at the same rate in stagnant air. That is your wind chill.

In the case of transporting your bike, their will not be any heat transfer at all because your bike and the air around it will be at the same temp. So the temp itself is what you should be concerned about.

Question:
Although water wetter isn't intended as an anti-freeze, does adding it to water lower the freezing point at all? Where a temp in the vicinity of 32 degrees wouldn't be such a cause for concern? Ethylene Glycol antifrees is good to -40, maybe adding water wetter drops the freesing point to say +10 degrees? If no one has this info, maybe I'll conduct an experiment.

I am a stress analyst and not a heat transfer dude, but it sounds like you are confusing convective heat transfer (cooling) with evaporative cooling.

The other item that is only a technicality at low altitudes, but is a major impact at higher altitudes (the closer to get to space the more important it is), is that the cooling effect is a function of the mass of air passing over the object (i.e. the radiator). Convection does not occur at higher altitudes at the same rate, for the same air velocity, as it does at sea level.


Water Wetter....I am not sure of the freezing point of water wetter, but a true solution has a higher boiling point and a lower freezing point than the 2 individual parts that were added together. That is why salt water freezes below 32 and boils just above 212 (is 212 right....I just don't remember).

You add so little water wetter that it may not have any impact at all on the freezing and boiling points.

Hope that helps.

Oh and air that is perfectly still (no natural convection) is phenomenal insulator.....that is what actually insulates your house, your windows, your vacuum sealed thermos (it is lined with a shiny substance to keep radiation heat transfer to a minimum as well))

[hank]

Not that Wiki is usually the best resource, but in this instance, it does a good job explaining how Wind Chill is the relative 'feeling' of cold on exposed skin... the ambient temp is the ambient temp and unless it is alive, a bike doesn't 'feel' the effects of the wind on it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_chill

[Meat]

Not that Wiki is usually the best resource, but in this instance, it does a good job explaining how Wind Chill is the relative 'feeling' of cold on exposed skin... the ambient temp is the ambient temp and unless it is alive, a bike doesn't 'feel' the effects of the wind on it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_chill

See what I get for answering off the top of my head!

Only a function of air velocity and temp.

Thanks Hank. I guess my lazy azz should have done a bit of research before I opened my big mouth.....at least I did preface it by saying it wasn't my field of expertise.

[riddler]

FYI - I looked at the tech specs for Water Wetter. It does not significantly alter the freezing point. They list the mixture of having a freezing point of 31 degrees. So it is definitely a cause for concern when you are doing those early in the year trackdays.

[Bluenvy]

ok, so you guys are saying that wind chill is only for evaporation on human skin, so why do our bikes have fan.
why does our bikes when we are stationery, it gets hot/warm, then as soon as we move off again, the temp drops?

It may not be wind chill, but the cooler the air moving over the metal the more heat will be transferred to the air. Surely the wind is a factor, ive seen days where the indicated temp is 35 degrees, and there is no wind, and the next day at the same spot the indicated temp is the same but its windy, and pubbles of water will have surface freeze. So whats that then? it may not be wind chill, but its something damn it.

3rd grade called, they said come on back :p

[Revvin' Evan]

3rd grade called, they said come on back :p

bwaaaaahhhhhhahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[snikwad]

It is not evaporation on human skin. The effect of evaporative cooling doesn't matter what it is on. Look up "swamp coolers". They are a cooling devise that is used in warmer and dryer climates. The drier the air, the more evaporation occurs and therefore the more evaporative cooling.

That is also how chillers or cooling towers work.

As for your bike having a cooling can on the radiator: It forces more air through your radiator. The more air mass that touches your radiator surface, the more heat is taken away....until the radiator is at the same temperature as the ambient air around it. Think of it this way: If you touched your radiator when it was hot, it would burn your hand because it transferred heat from the radiator and into your hand. Now think about 100 of your friends doing the same thing very quickly...as if a fan was pushing your friends through the line to touch your radiator....cools it even faster.

I hope that helped. You can also look up "wet bulb test" to see how evaporative cooling is used to determine relative humidity (No, I didn't look it up, but I am sure it will tell you).

This is all im saying. and at near freezing temps, doesnt it still apply?

[Meat]

FYI - I looked at the tech specs for Water Wetter. It does not significantly alter the freezing point. They list the mixture of having a freezing point of 31 degrees. So it is definitely a cause for concern when you are doing those early in the year trackdays.

Hey, thanks John for letting us know.

[rk97]

This is all im saying. and at near freezing temps, doesnt it still apply?

I'm struggling to come up with a good example... one of the first things to understand is that heat is energy. cold is LACK of energy. anything cold that comes in contact with something warmer is taking heat energy from the warmer object.

a stationary radiator is only exposed to the air that immediately surrounds it. Air flowing through a radiator provides more air to take that heat energy than a stationary radiator has, but the air itself is not any colder just because it's moving.

As an example, stick your hand or foot in a bucket of ice water and DO NOT MOVE IT (your hand is the running bike's radiator). Your body will heat the water immediately surrounding your hand/foot. after 10 minutes or so, stir the water and it will FEEL much colder, even though you know the water couldn't possibly actually BE colder than when you started.

when you're bike's not running, it's not producing any heat to warm the air around the radiator, thus circulating that air has zero affect on the radiator's actual temperature. Same applies when towing.

[Motofun352]

For heat transfer to take place(in this phase stable situation) there HAS to be a temperture difference. It is impossble to freeze water in the radiator when the air temperture is at 33 F. Velocity of the air doesn't matter. In fact it actually adds heat to the radiator due to friction (think space shuttle re-entry :). IF you spray an evaporating fluid (say alcohol?) on the surface of the radiator (thus creating a phase change in the alcohol) then the conditions are different. The heat of vaporization of the alcohol will lower the temperature on the surface of the radiator thus allowing heat transfer to take place.

So what happens if your bike gets wet while your towing and the water evaporates off the radiator causing the phase change to occur???? Is it possible for the surface temperature of the radiator to drop to 32 F ????:dunno:

[avizpls]

guys. you're thinking about this WAY too much. lol (dont forget about FOG CONDENSATION!)

[snikwad]

I'm struggling to come up with a good example... one of the first things to understand is that heat is energy. cold is LACK of energy. anything cold that comes in contact with something warmer is taking heat energy from the warmer object.

a stationary radiator is only exposed to the air that immediately surrounds it. Air flowing through a radiator provides more air to take that heat energy than a stationary radiator has, but the air itself is not any colder just because it's moving.

As an example, stick your hand or foot in a bucket of ice water and DO NOT MOVE IT (your hand is the running bike's radiator). Your body will heat the water immediately surrounding your hand/foot. after 10 minutes or so, stir the water and it will FEEL much colder, even though you know the water couldn't possibly actually BE colder than when you started.

when you're bike's not running, it's not producing any heat to warm the air around the radiator, thus circulating that air has zero affect on the radiator's actual temperature. Same applies when towing.

the air itself is not any colder because its moving, but because its moving there is no chance for that air around the object to warm to a temp that slows down the heat exchange/removal process. or, the air around the object doesnt become saturated, so to speak, because its moving and cooler air is constantly there, so the heat exchange transfer process is always at its optimum because of the surrounding air constantly being cooler and constantly being renewed, because it is fresh.

This is why in some climates, people cover their oil coolers and/or partially their radiator because the vehicles fluids simply wont get up to temp because theyre being cooled too much.

[dmb367]

For heat transfer to take place(in this phase stable situation) there HAS to be a temperture difference.

Its just this simple people, listen to the man! :banghead:

[jls223]

Gentlemen (I use this term quite loosely) and Ladies if any are reading this.

Here is the bottom-line verdict. Everyone that has posted on this thread is correct to one degree (pun intended) or another. What I don't think everyone has considered is REAL WORLD CIRCUMSTANCES. Everyone is thinking this is a laboratory. It is not. Yes, water freezes at 32F at atmospheric pressure (14.7psi or 29.92 InHG). Yes, water wetter freezing point is 31F. Yes, wind chill doesn't effect the actual temperature of the coil. Yes, water evaporates at 45F in a vacuum. Yes, water boils at 180F in Denver. Yes, Britney Spears is shaved. Yes, yes, yes.

But ....

How do you know what the real temperature is? Is your thermometer in the truck or via weather channel or via radio correct. And if it is correct is that what the actual temperature is going across the entire coil (radiator)? It is very possible, if not downright probable, that the air temperature on you vehicle reads 34F and on a single point in your radiator it is 31F and the coil freezes due to stratification. I've seen hundreds of coils freeze with water in them. All it takes is one spot at one bend in the coil to freeze and your screwed. Bottom-line, if I were towing a bike in an open trailer with water in it and the temp was going to drop to 35F I'd at least cover the radiator because the radiator is a heat transfer coil. I wouldn't cover the radiator because I thought the wind chill would affect it but because the heat that was in the radiator (144 BTU per lb to change water to ice known as latent heat of fusion) would not be lost. I'm not worried about freezing the block but I would be concerned about freezing the radiator.

Ok. I'm done. Feel better. Ya'll go head and finish. :asleep:

[Bluenvy]

so if im towing my bike with water on a trailer and its 98 degrees out, should i be concerned with the water boiling and ruining something? im afraid with all the hot air hitting it as im driving it will make the radiator to hot... :confused:

[hank]

so if im towing my bike with water on a trailer and its 98 degrees out, should i be concerned with the water boiling and ruining something? im afraid with all the hot air hitting it as im driving it will make the radiator to hot... :confused:

It depends which direction you are driving... :p:p:p

[dmb367]

so if im towing my bike with water on a trailer and its 98 degrees out, should i be concerned with the water boiling and ruining something? im afraid with all the hot air hitting it as im driving it will make the radiator to hot... :confused:

It's sarcastic wednesday!

[snikwad]

so if im towing my bike with water on a trailer and its 98 degrees out, should i be concerned with the water boiling and ruining something? im afraid with all the hot air hitting it as im driving it will make the radiator to hot... :confused:
no because there is nothing ADDING heat to the bike, the radiator or anything.
Its like you can be 98 degrees in traffic, your fan on your bike is kicking on all day. But if you move of, the ambient temp doesnt change, but the air around the heat exchangers are moving, cause a greater degree of heat exchange.

I know your being sarcastic, but its the same principle which i think made the OP post his question.

[jls223]

It depends which direction you are driving... :p:p:p

Only if your facing north while driving south in 2nd gear. :)

[physicistkev]

This thread makes me smile :)

[Landshark]

I'm surprised you haven't chimmed in!

[avizpls]

maybe because he too realizes some things are just not worth it. The correct answer has been given in fifty different forms

[jls223]

This thread makes me smile :)

What tire pressure do you normally run between trackdays? :saythat:

[physicistkev]

I like this thread because it talks about a very simple concept, but like many things, has a ridiculously complex scientific explanation. So much about what/how/why something is/happens is scientifically complex. We just tend to simplify because it would be impossible for the masses to understand things to the most minuet level.

For example, I get asked about how networks work, since I am a network engr, all the time. I always ask these questions. Do you want to know about electrons moving from atom to atom in copper and covering airgaps or electromagnetic waves, in the case of wireless. Or, do you want to talk about the TCP/UDP streams that are incorporated by packets traversing the copper wires. Or, do you want to talk about SMTP HELLO commands, HTTP GET commands or other app level incantations. Or do you want to talk about client server relationships, DNS querries and the like.

Each individual statement in the above paragraph can lead to an answer for "How does a network work?" It just depends on what level you want to look at it. The question asked to start this thread was very simple and the basic answer is also very simple, yet if you throw a few odd variables in the answer becomes nearly impossible to understand unless you have a thorough understanding of thermodynamics. Even then, you can argue, as someone did that the concept is far simpler and vague since we are not talking about theoretical situations.

In general we tend to oversimplify things so the masses can understand them without putting much thought into it. The downside to this is that lots of people think the variables in a situation may have less or more of an impact than they really do. I don't understand lots of things, but I understand that nothing, is really simple.

JLS223 - I usually run a slow decompression from the last track day until I try to put the bike on the trailer with a half inflated front tire.

[jls223]

I like this thread because it talks about a very simple concept, but like many things, has a ridiculously complex scientific explanation. So much about what/how/why something is/happens is scientifically complex. We just tend to simplify because it would be impossible for the masses to understand things to the most minuet level.

For example, I get asked about how networks work, since I am a network engr, all the time. I always ask these questions. Do you want to know about electrons moving from atom to atom in copper and covering airgaps or electromagnetic waves, in the case of wireless. Or, do you want to talk about the TCP/UDP streams that are incorporated by packets traversing the copper wires. Or, do you want to talk about SMTP HELLO commands, HTTP GET commands or other app level incantations. Or do you want to talk about client server relationships, DNS querries and the like.

Each individual statement in the above paragraph can lead to an answer for "How does a network work?" It just depends on what level you want to look at it. The question asked to start this thread was very simple and the basic answer is also very simple, yet if you throw a few odd variables in the answer becomes nearly impossible to understand unless you have a thorough understanding of thermodynamics. Even then, you can argue, as someone did that the concept is far simpler and vague since we are not talking about theoretical situations.

In general we tend to oversimplify things so the masses can understand them without putting much thought into it. The downside to this is that lots of people think the variables in a situation may have less or more of an impact than they really do. I don't understand lots of things, but I understand that nothing, is really simple.

JLS223 - I usually run a slow decompression from the last track day until I try to put the bike on the trailer with a half inflated front tire.

I shall offer a salute at Summit on the 13th! :adore:

[Folly1]

Let's get back to an interesting point. You tech guys, Kevin, Meat, and others, please address the Britney Spears variable as brought up in post #32. JRA, JFloyd, and Mr. Brown should have some input here!

Thanks,

Ben.

[Meat]

Let's get back to an interesting point. You tech guys, Kevin, Meat, and others, please address the Britney Spears variable as brought up in post #32. JRA, JFloyd, and Mr. Brown should have some input here!

Thanks,

Ben.

I think it is all about High Speed, Low Drag and I must compliment Britney on that.

[physicistkev]

Meat - I have to disagree. With a lack of diffusion around said orifice, with the hair removed, I would think the localized pressure differences would create some significant instability. Layman's terms, lots of flapping. Thus, destroying the actual aerodynamics of the situation.

[vanelli56]

If anything...just make sure you dont go past 88 mph!
B/c if I learned anything from the 80's, its that when you go Back to the Future, your car will get "cold, DAMN COLD!"

Thats why the radiators cool down at speed. :D

Everything I learned in life....I learned from an 80's movie!
:popcorn:

[JDog]

The easiest way to explain this is to look at the second law of thermodynamics which in its simplest form means "heat flows spontaneously from a hot body to a cool one". It's the same reason (law) why ice cubs melt in the summer instead of getting colder.

In this example the "hot" body is your motorcycle engine and the "cool" body is the air flowing around it as you trailer down the highway (or from your rad fan/etc). The cool body will draw heat energy from the hot body until they are in equilibrium. The temperate of air doesn't change if it's blowing (molecular energy aside, folks) or sitting still.

As your radiator does its job radiating heat energy away from your engine, the air around the radiator gets warmer, reducing its ability to absorb additional heat energy. As you move down the road (or the radiator fan kicks on) it introduces cooler air which can absorb more heat than the warmer air you just pushed away.

If the air temperature is 32F, and your engine is 55F, the engine's heat energy will flow to the air until both are in equilibrium. There is no physical method for an element to lose additional heat energy beyond equilibrium. The first law of thermodynamics tells us that energy cannot be created OR destroyed.

Basically, your engine can't "decide" to get colder just because the wind is blowing ;)

[Revvin' Evan]

The easiest way to explain this is to look at the second law of thermodynamics which in its simplest form means "heat flows spontaneously from a hot body to a cool one". It's the same reason (law) why ice cubs melt in the summer instead of getting colder.

In this example the "hot" body is your motorcycle engine and the "cool" body is the air flowing around it as you trailer down the highway (or from your rad fan/etc). The cool body will draw heat energy from the hot body until they are in equilibrium. The temperate of air doesn't change if it's blowing (molecular energy aside, folks) or sitting still.

As your radiator does its job radiating heat energy away from your engine, the air around the radiator gets warmer, reducing its ability to absorb additional heat energy. As you move down the road (or the radiator fan kicks on) it introduces cooler air which can absorb more heat than the warmer air you just pushed away.

If the air temperature is 32F, and your engine is 55F, the engine's heat energy will flow to the air until both are in equilibrium. There is no physical method for an element to lose additional heat energy beyond equilibrium. The first law of thermodynamics tells us that energy cannot be created OR destroyed.

Basically, your engine can't "decide" to get colder just because the wind is blowing ;)

:D:congrats: You know all about draining the water with all those Mass. to Jennings trips in the winter

[jls223]

A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking. ;)