Crash on tape thunderbolt 4/12/09

[MIATA99]

As far as all the crashing goes in the b group. Nesba is booking way to many people for that group. The crashes happen when people can't wait so they pass at the wrong times. Next they should def. go over what lines to ride on the track so everyone knows where to be. I have over 60 min of flim on monday and have a ton of screw ups on tape.


When you watch the tape. Make sure you click the HQ button on You Tube and turn up the volume hahaha!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhLtx0lrGmA

[dark nater]

The crash in that video had nothing to do with too many people being on the track. It looked like he was slowing down a little much for corners and then hammering the gas coming out. I can't say with 100% certainty, but it looks to me like he was leaning a little far for the speed he was going and realized it and tried to grab some gas and spun the back end. Sorry for the guy that wrecked in that video.

I spent last season in the B group and did some TDs with 40+ in the group at Summit Main. That is a lot of people in one group and we never had issues. Sometimes you would get held up by a pack, but you had to show common sense and good judgement on when/where to pass. This doesn't change just because you get bumped or there are less people in the group, you still need to show the same good decision making. So that is completely on the individual rider, not on the number of people in the group. That is why it is one of the things the CRs look for when determining if you are ready to be bumped.

On a side note, your camera takes very good quality video...

[snikwad]

so mofos get impatient and pass at the wrong time, and thats nesbas fault?

[MIATA99]

I have no problem im fine. Ive been riding with nesba for 3 years and i think that they do a awesome job. I just think that they over book the b group and people always stack up. That was my buddy in the vid so im not calling out anybody. Thats why i didnt post all the other screw ups.

[lemondrop]

i just think your title of the video is off.....like dk said...he was ging fairly slow for that turn and lost traction...it doesnt seem like it was because he was goign way too fast...


anyways...what camera system are you running?? quality looks fairly good and seems to be mounted to your helmet

[Clarus]

Awesome camera, which is it?

ohh and that's helmet mounted? DON'T WATCH THE CRASH IN FRONT OF YOU!

[ta2kutz]

last year in nov. the A group i was in had nearly 40 riders. its not a numbers problem.
the crash in the vid. was just either too much gas leaned over. or ran out of lean angle and ditched it.
ive had guys in I group and A group do the same thing.
any group is gonna have idiots in it. if you want clear track pit in and wait for it.
otherwise use the time to learn how to set people up and pass them abiding by your class rules.
while in i group i think it was drew that gave me my best advise.
" look for where you want to make your pass 3-4 corners ahead of time."
so watch the guy in front and pick your pass early so you are ready. i group isn much better then b. passing on the outside of a turn isnt as easy as it looks. you really need to be moving much faster than the guy ahead. so it makes just as much of a log jam. yeah the riders are a little faster but it still has issues.

as for numbers im pretty sure nesba uses a formula for length of track to give them how many riders they allow. its not just a free for all for whoever wants to sign up

[Emerson]

Its not the track, its not NESBA, its not the number of riders!!! The one who controls the bike is YOU!!! plain and simple, if you go down dont blame the tires, dont blame the temp, dont blame the guy who is in front of you. you are the one who went too fast on cold tires, you are the one who cant pass the guy in front of you, etc ect. I seriously dont get why people blame NESBA for them not being able to control the bike. If you get impatient just pit out and ask the track marshal for some clear track.

[Dave561]

Good point Emerson. But, what excuse do you use if you crash 2 ft in front of your pit?

The groups do tend to bunch up a bit at times on all the tracks but it's amazing that if you step ack and look you'll see 30 riders packed into 100yds of a 2 mile track. If you feel that your bunched up then pit in and ask the marshal for a gap.

[Tony A]

:agree:
well said

[lemondrop]

i blame Washington

[Emerson]

Good point Emerson. But, what excuse do you use if you crash 2 ft in front of your pit?

It was my first time on the bike, new tires, cold tire, cold temps, It was all NESBA's fault!!...... :banghead: :D :cool: lol

[Dave561]

Well said :D

[barry38]

As far as all the crashing goes in the b group. Nesba is booking way to many people for that group. The crashes happen when people can't wait so they pass at the wrong times. Next they should def. go over what lines to ride on the track so everyone knows where to be. I have over 60 min of flim on monday and have a ton of screw ups on tape.


When you watch the tape. Make sure you click the HQ button on You Tube and turn up the volume hahaha!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhLtx0lrGmA

I would strongly recommend that if someone crashes in front of you that you not look at them. To me that was a classic case of target fixation, and if it would have happened at a faster section of track, you could have been in real trouble. You could have easily maintained your line and completed the turn if you had kept looking through the turn. If there had been another bike right behind you, there is a distinct possibility you would have gotten ass packed when you checked up.

Please don't take this as criticism, when I say you I'm talk about any rider who may find themselves in a similar situation. As a CR my concern is safety, and I think your video gives everyone a learning opportunity. I know it's hard not to watch someone crashing, I will actually yell at my self inside my helmet to not look when it happens!

[Fire929]

Quality is great with whatever camera you are using.

After watching the clip a few times I think I would have done the same thing you did as far as checking up. There seems to be enough room to make the turn but if it was me sliding on the ground in front of you I'd really appreciate you checking up.:D

[dolfnz67]

Good Video. Also, I hope your friend is o.k. It always sucks to go down.

However, I have to agree with the rest of the guys who have commented. Your friend has no one to blame but himself. From what I can gather from the video, it seems as if he slowed down too much prior to entering the turn and accelerated prior to the apex, a bad thing to do IMO, :doh:. Hey, but just like everything else, you live and you learn.

[hank]

If you feel that your bunched up then pit in and ask the marshal for a gap.


:agree:

Without a doubt! You may miss maybe half a lap of riding time, but having an open track sure makes up for it...

[toptaz1000rr]

why are you focusing on his rear the whole time and not looking ahead/past him ... you fixated on him and almost crashed as well ... and from what i saw previous to the crash he was doing fine..that left handed turn needs to be taken more to the right and turn in hard.. not aim for the left apex and try to pull it out .... which is what it looks like he did .. (you too ) since you just about ran off as well ..

[Geoff Doyer]

I would VERY happily limit the numbers in the B group to HALF of what we currently allow if we felt we had HALF a chance at filling up the grid at $400/day. The reason people crash is not because of the number of riders but the reason you see more crashes IS the number of riders. Hope that made sense.

[toptaz1000rr]

good point geoff...

you could have as many crashes in I group (which some days there are a ton) does that mean you should limit I group too ..

maybe TD's should only be for a groups.experts.ama riders..

hell close the doors lets go back to running the streets..llol

JUST KIDDING!
ROCK ON NESBA... ride YOUR ability not the guy in front of you !

[toptaz1000rr]

BTW i WOUDL pay 400 for the day if you could get me a CR to work with me 1 on 1... or 2-3 guys to a cr for the whole day /feeback and such included :)

[Landshark]

LOL... once upon a time there was a little place called reality.... in that place "Shit Happens". It is what is.
What is this America land of the whinnying, bleeding heart, sue everyone, blame anyone, and deny any responsibility republic? :argh:

[rk97]

I like what Dave (slow_honda) said on page 1.

what I also like to consider is where everyone is located on the track at the beginning of the session. the people who line up at the front of the left-hand line go out first, right? these are generally the faster riders.

but by the time they get around to start/finish (1:50ish for warm-up at NJMP?), the last of the people in the right-hand (slower) row have JUST gotten out on the track.

the result is often that the faster guys with warm tires are now directly behind a pack of slower riders with cold tires. It's a recipe for disaster if the faster riders get impatient.

Part of me thinks it would be better to get the 'slower' riders out first, and then try to release the faster group right in front of that slow pack. if that were logistically possible, I'm sure NESBA would go that route, but a little consideration to the pace of 'lap traffic' early in the session would have the same effect with zero changes in procedure.

so like Dave said - just use common sense!

[lemondrop]

BTW i WOUDL pay 400 for the day if you could get me a CR to work with me 1 on 1... or 2-3 guys to a cr for the whole day /feeback and such included :)

isnt that called an SED:notsure::p

[rk97]

just watched the crash - did he lose the rear, or just catch a foot peg? I can't tell which happened first!

[RyanITV]

just watched the crash - did he lose the rear, or just catch a foot peg? I can't tell which happened first!

The streak from the tire looks like it started first and it didn't look like he was low enough to drag hard parts. Probably just too much throttle at that lean angle.

Ryan

[NoBull]

I've been hearing the "too many riders for the track" complaint for as long as I have been doing trackdays (since 2002). The answer has always been the same, it's not the number of riders itself that's causing the problem but the riders that get impatient and are not skilled enough for what they are trying to do (like your friend that goosed it too hard in the middle of the turn). The A group rarely gets completely full but when it does there is not nearly the same number of crashes you see in B and I. That's because the riders in A are better able to judge closing speeds and when and where to make a pass as well as the rider being passed doesn't get spooked.

As Doyer said it's not financially possible to do trackdays at these tracks and keep the cost relatively low and reduce the number of riders all at the same time. It's one of those pick 2 out of 3 kinda things.

I understand it's frustrating feeling like you can't ride your own pace the entire time you are out there, but it's still better than coming home in pieces. It usually hurts and is expensive. It's also better going a little slower than sitting in pitlane waiting for somebody to get picked up before you can go back out or have to end the session after 10 minutes.

I know you're going to come back with "oh you're in A and you guys never have traffic". True, but I was in B and I as well and still remember those days where traffic was bad. It wasn't as much fun, but it was usually just in the morning. By afternoon the people that hadn't been to the track before had learned their way around and picked up the pace, some people were packing up early and in general it had warmed up a little so everybody were just going faster and it wasn't as big a problem. Have some patience for the afternoon sessions. If you don't have the stamina to do all the sessions sit out the ones in the morning instead of the last one of the day. That's usually the one with the fewest riders and least likelyhood of crashes.

[Landshark]

I like what Dave (slow_honda) said on page 1.

what I also like to consider is where everyone is located on the track at the beginning of the session. the people who line up at the front of the left-hand line go out first, right? these are generally the faster riders.

but by the time they get around to start/finish (1:50ish for warm-up at NJMP?), the last of the people in the right-hand (slower) row have JUST gotten out on the track.

the result is often that the faster guys with warm tires are now directly behind a pack of slower riders with cold tires. It's a recipe for disaster if the faster riders get impatient.

Part of me thinks it would be better to get the 'slower' riders out first, and then try to release the faster group right in front of that slow pack. if that were logistically possible, I'm sure NESBA would go that route, but a little consideration to the pace of 'lap traffic' early in the session would have the same effect with zero changes in procedure.

so like Dave said - just use common sense!

In "A" we do the same thing. Our 1st lap is usually met with people from pit out on colder tires than ours are now. We then deal with passes inside, outside and both sides at the same time in a corner.
The common thread here is to keep your head screwed on and not pretend your going to be on "Speed TV" the evening. Oh my bad it would not be aired for 2 weeks!
Seriously though the blend line, track marshal and CRs are there to help that type of situation. Can you imagine what you would be facing if they just let pit lane open once the session started?
In a perfect world every 7 secs 6 bikes would be let go. I wish it was that easy.

[barry38]

To add to what Finn said - I can't tell you the number of times I've seen half of a group or less ride the last two sessions of the day. I remember VIR two years ago, we had 5 CR's line up with 4 B riders for the final session of the day.

The biggest problem with the first 2-3 sessions is you are mixing a very wide range of skill sets. It just takes awhile for the group to sort itself out. New people with zero experience vs. people who have some experience or getting close to a bump to I creates a situation where speed differntials are quite large.

When I'm the B captian I always stress that each and every rider shares the same responsibilty in how their day will go. Be patient, check your ego, and show respect for your fellow riders, and it will make the day go much better.

I was spectating at alot of events at NJMP last year due to my injuries and I was always amazed at how much empty track there was in the B group. It's like watching little kids play soccer. It always looks like a herd running around the ball, all trying to kick it at the same time. The B group always reminds me of that.

[Cooney]

Well put Barry!

This does happens at other tracks too! How easy is it to take a stroll into pit lane at pit speed, but the time you get back out, you could easily have room to play. Without 20 guys in front of you all bunched up. This may take 30 seconds out of your session but will make for a very enjoyable session and day.

[Smithereens]

Since I laid my R6 down in the exact same turn last Nov on a cold day......it brings back memories. My tires weren't warmed up quite enough on the left side and I got a little greedy with the power by going down a gear and spun the rear. Everything happened in slow motion for me... no damage to me or the bike and I rode it back to the pits before anyone had even completed another lap. I was just a little embarrased because I know better:)

It's not the number of riders, or how many CR's are out there on a given day that causes crashes ..... as Emerson said....it's operator error! We only have ourselves to blame unless someone runs into us or cuts us off.

This guy in the video might have turned in a little early or turn 5 and had a lot of lean angle?.... it looks to me like he might have lost grip before he started to lay down the power?

It seemed to me that almost every crash on Sunday (at least in I group) was on lefthanders. I think I read that the big clusterf--k at the end of the straight was a braking issue.

[rk97]

learning the other riders in your group is just as much of a challenge as learning a new track some days.

guy in the maroon jacket was way faster than me. I knew i could use an aggressive braking point behind him. once I knew that, I pretty much ignored him, and looked to the rider in front of him to see who might hold HIM up. btw - anyone know how he's doing? I didn't see the wreck, but I thought someone took him out in the chicane.

[Bluenvy]

Good point Emerson. But, what excuse do you use if you crash 2 ft in front of your pit?

The groups do tend to bunch up a bit at times on all the tracks but it's amazing that if you step ack and look you'll see 30 riders packed into 100yds of a 2 mile track. If you feel that your bunched up then pit in and ask the marshal for a gap.

cold tires :idea:

[JonnyZ!]

Looks like he unloaded the front right at the patch transition. Doesn't take much to upset the front considering all the variables....Ambient temp/track temp/tyre temp/lean angle/suspension setup/.........ad nauseum

I've always found the patch a bit bumpy/slickery....

Like Troy said....."Shit happens"

[psychocycle]

To add to what Finn said - I can't tell you the number of times I've seen half of a group or less ride the last two sessions of the day. I remember VIR two years ago, we had 5 CR's line up with 4 B riders for the final session of the day.

The biggest problem with the first 2-3 sessions is you are mixing a very wide range of skill sets. It just takes awhile for the group to sort itself out. New people with zero experience vs. people who have some experience or getting close to a bump to I creates a situation where speed differntials are quite large.

When I'm the B captian I always stress that each and every rider shares the same responsibilty in how their day will go. Be patient, check your ego, and show respect for your fellow riders, and it will make the day go much better.

I was spectating at alot of events at NJMP last year due to my injuries and I was always amazed at how much empty track there was in the B group. It's like watching little kids play soccer. It always looks like a herd running around the ball, all trying to kick it at the same time. The B group always reminds me of that.

Perfect! The best sessions are at the end of the day. Use what you have learned and apply. By 3 o' clock the track seems to empty out but I have the best time because I know most hot heads have crashed by then or everyone it too tired to ride, or some just have to go. The first 2 or 3 sessions I use to just hit my marks. Over and over all morning long, while keeping some what of a comfortable pace. Then after lunch it sometimes starts to thin out a bit and you can start clicking off cones all afternoon but at a much smoother and faster pace. And keeping in mind that there are people out there for there first or second time. B is not the place to prove anything. If people concentrate on being smooth and riding withing a limit they will have a better time.

[nrcooled]

If you don't have the stamina to do all the sessions sit out the ones in the morning instead of the last one of the day. That's usually the one with the fewest riders and least likelyhood of crashes.

d00d!!!! You're giving away my secret!!! SHHHHHHHH

The last session of the day is usually the best one.

[Viper]

shit happens.....

how you can even try to blame that on nesba is a new one to me........



Viper